Hearthstone which has literally been on the market for like 20 years.
Quote from the internet about Hearthstone's official release date--
"The game was released on March 11, 2014."
We do some simple math and conclude that Hearthstone is just a little bit less than 8 years old.
Look, in all seriousness, you clearly don't like Legends of Runeterra anymore. There's a simple solution to that - just stop playing it. There is literally (see what I did there? using the word properly and all?) no reason for you to try to drag other people down into hating the game along with you.
See you later!
Edit - Total side note about that Grapplr video: That Tristana/Rumble deck looks super interesting. I kinda wanna try it out.
Question. Why does it matter to us, the player what mobalytics say? It seems like it would make more sense for us gauge our enjoyment of the game off of whether the decks we are playing are entertaining us. As a player, why would I care how statistically good a deck is if it’s not one I enjoy or play?
People generally use mobalytics to find decks that look interesting and are also competitive. Why? Because most people suck at building decks, me included. I get an idea, build it - doesn't really work. Go check mobalytics, find a better list, and it works better.
It's a tool, just like any other tool. It's useful in many different ways - but how you use it all depends on what you want to accomplish with it.
Nifty, I think you're playing a different game from the rest of us. Either that, or you're hyper focused on just one thing, and you can't see the rest of the landscape.
1. Champion wincons are just as numerous as they've ever been. Yeah, sure, Lee Sin isn't meta currently (though I guarantee you, people are still playing decks with him - I saw one just last night during the only 15 minutes I've watched Twitch in the last month - and it wasn't the streamer playing it). The fact that Lee Sin is not meta does not mean that no champion wincons are meta. That's like saying, "Well, Thralls fell out of the meta, so I guess Riot doesn't want anyone to be able to win with landmarks." The Mobalytics tier list (about which you created this entire thread) has at least half of the decks being heavily dependent on their champions. And incidentally, two of them have Poppy.
2. Just to digress briefly, you were raging about Plunder Midrange in another thread. And there it is, listed as A tier. 53% winrate.
3. You seem to think that decks with champion wincons are more interesting to build. That's actually just plain false. Most of the decks that feature champion wincons are so obvious that they build themselves (or else they come essentially pre-built by Riot). How much has the Lee Sin deck shell changed since he became meta a year ago?
4. I haven't seen any forum threads complaining about champions, D-tier or otherwise. Except yours, of course.
Your thesis, Nifty, is that champions don't matter enough currently. Here are the top 10 decks, by competitive winrate:
1. Lulu Fizz - a deck where both champs are crucially important to winning
2. Rally Elusives - champs are not very important
3. Kennen Ahri Absolver - champs are extremely important AND they also need to level up (side note - this is universally considered the most powerful deck in the game presently)
4. Spider burn - champs aren't that important, though Elise definitely helps a lot, and her level up is also relevant.
5. Pantheon Taric - umm, yeah. This deck is all about the champs.
6. Pirates - the champs aren't required, but they make it a ton easier to win if you draw and level them
So, we have 3 out of the top 10 winrate decks currently where the champs don't matter much. That does not seem to support your thesis very well at all.
Let's see if we can lay out the key components of a combo deck:
1. A small handful of key cards that combine together to give a high chance of just winning immediately when those cards are drawn and played.
2. Most of the rest of the deck is card draw, to make sure you find the combo.
3. It takes at least a few turns to set up the combo. It doesn't really have an alternate wincon - it wins with the combo or it loses. It also has VERY little interaction to respond to what the opponent is doing. It just tries to pull off its own gameplan.
4. It is vulnerable to being "rushed down" while it tries to assemble its combo.
5. Probably some other things I'm not thinking of.
Regardless, all of those things are true about Iceborn Daring Poros. I don't think it fits any other category besides combo. And you beat it the same way you beat combo - rush it down, or force it to defend itself (which it cannot do). And incidentally, this is why the winrate is not out of control - it's quite vulnerable to some decks.
The winrate of poros is not nearly as high as people think it is.
It was very heavily played for, like, 2 days, and now it's dropped off very steeply. It's not actually as big of a problem as people initially thought it was.
On a related note - can we all, as a CCG community, just stop with the knee-jerk reactions? How many times do we have to get egg on our faces by crying for nerfs or making predictions with only 2 days of data in a volatile meta?
If poros is posting high winrates and high playrate in two weeks, THAT is the time to call for nerfs, to whine about it, etc etc. But not mere days after it even became a real thing, for basically the first time ever.
Side note - Iceborn Daring Poros is NOT an aggro deck. It's a combo deck. People who try to play it as aggro (by dropping daring poros as soon as they draw them) are gonna get their butts handed to them by any competent player.
Personally, I like it when there is a big enemy to fight. What I don’t like is when every person I fight is that big enemy
You realize that this is impossible to attain, right?
If the enemy is big, it will have an enormous slice of the playrate pie, and you will fight it often (aka "every person I fight" in the common ccg slang).
If it does not have a huge playrate, it's too small to be "the big enemy."
That's just how the genre works. I don't know of any exceptions.
I look and see what Graplr the only streamer still supporting the game daily
I just popped into Twitch to check. Majinbae has over 700 viewers right now. I checked his schedule - technically, you're right that he doesn't stream daily. He skips Friday. And the weekend is not listed in his schedule, but he often streams on weekends as well.
Looks like Jason Fleurant took a break for the holidays, but he also streams basically every day.
And then you have European streamers like Alanzq and Freshlobster.
I have no idea where you got the idea that Graplr is the only streamer left.
I wonder how deep the player pool is myself sometimes :) I've mostly stopped now, and that was in large part because when i DID play, i would get matched, over and over, with SI/Nox bots. Not the most fun way to pass the time.
I can't comment on how many people are playing, except to say that I recently dipped back into playing. It had been long enough that I was in the bottom of Iron IV. And none of my opponents have been even remotely what could be called "bots." Most of them have been playing shockingly well for being in the bottom of Iron.
The health nerf for both cards means that they mostly cannot survive more than one combat in many cases. One of the advantages of Merciless Hunter was being able to remove something and survive to gain a 2-for-1 advantage - that's a LOT less likely now.
One of the bonuses of Ruin Runner is being alive for multiple attacks, or being able to block and then also still attack. With only 3 health, it's almost certainly only getting in one attack turn and dying to a blocker.
So, I think the changes are more impactful than you're giving them credit for. Just look what one health nerf did to Fiora, Aphelios, and Rearguard (a much older example that was reverted to put him back to 2 health, but he was literally never used as a 3/1) - just as historical examples.
All I can say is that I've basically stopped playing both LoR and Hearthstone for the last week or so. Have been playing LoR for a year and a half, and I played HS for about 2 years prior to that.
It may or may not say something significant about both games that I'm currently getting into Raid: Shadow Legends for the first time ever, and enjoying it more than either of the above card games.
Riot and Blizz both have some work to do to fix their games.
This Senna looks completely badass, not gonna lie. And I think we're going to be surprised by the ways people find to use the accelerated spells feature.
This is a cool idea, but would be too inconsistent with so many 1x copies of cards. You'd need to hone the list a bit better to the most crucial cards, and put them up 3x each.
Quote from the internet about Hearthstone's official release date--
"The game was released on March 11, 2014."
We do some simple math and conclude that Hearthstone is just a little bit less than 8 years old.
Look, in all seriousness, you clearly don't like Legends of Runeterra anymore. There's a simple solution to that - just stop playing it. There is literally (see what I did there? using the word properly and all?) no reason for you to try to drag other people down into hating the game along with you.
See you later!
Edit - Total side note about that Grapplr video: That Tristana/Rumble deck looks super interesting. I kinda wanna try it out.
People generally use mobalytics to find decks that look interesting and are also competitive. Why? Because most people suck at building decks, me included. I get an idea, build it - doesn't really work. Go check mobalytics, find a better list, and it works better.
It's a tool, just like any other tool. It's useful in many different ways - but how you use it all depends on what you want to accomplish with it.
Nifty, I think you're playing a different game from the rest of us. Either that, or you're hyper focused on just one thing, and you can't see the rest of the landscape.
1. Champion wincons are just as numerous as they've ever been. Yeah, sure, Lee Sin isn't meta currently (though I guarantee you, people are still playing decks with him - I saw one just last night during the only 15 minutes I've watched Twitch in the last month - and it wasn't the streamer playing it). The fact that Lee Sin is not meta does not mean that no champion wincons are meta. That's like saying, "Well, Thralls fell out of the meta, so I guess Riot doesn't want anyone to be able to win with landmarks." The Mobalytics tier list (about which you created this entire thread) has at least half of the decks being heavily dependent on their champions. And incidentally, two of them have Poppy.
2. Just to digress briefly, you were raging about Plunder Midrange in another thread. And there it is, listed as A tier. 53% winrate.
3. You seem to think that decks with champion wincons are more interesting to build. That's actually just plain false. Most of the decks that feature champion wincons are so obvious that they build themselves (or else they come essentially pre-built by Riot). How much has the Lee Sin deck shell changed since he became meta a year ago?
4. I haven't seen any forum threads complaining about champions, D-tier or otherwise. Except yours, of course.
Let's look at the top performing decks right now. Dr. Lor's meta report.
Your thesis, Nifty, is that champions don't matter enough currently. Here are the top 10 decks, by competitive winrate:
1. Lulu Fizz - a deck where both champs are crucially important to winning
2. Rally Elusives - champs are not very important
3. Kennen Ahri Absolver - champs are extremely important AND they also need to level up (side note - this is universally considered the most powerful deck in the game presently)
4. Spider burn - champs aren't that important, though Elise definitely helps a lot, and her level up is also relevant.
5. Pantheon Taric - umm, yeah. This deck is all about the champs.
6. Pirates - the champs aren't required, but they make it a ton easier to win if you draw and level them
7. Draven Rumble - champs are important
8. P&Z Noxus Burn - champs don't matter
9. Scouts - champs are very relevant here
10. Shyvana Pantheon - again, champs definitely matter.
So, we have 3 out of the top 10 winrate decks currently where the champs don't matter much. That does not seem to support your thesis very well at all.
Let's see if we can lay out the key components of a combo deck:
1. A small handful of key cards that combine together to give a high chance of just winning immediately when those cards are drawn and played.
2. Most of the rest of the deck is card draw, to make sure you find the combo.
3. It takes at least a few turns to set up the combo. It doesn't really have an alternate wincon - it wins with the combo or it loses. It also has VERY little interaction to respond to what the opponent is doing. It just tries to pull off its own gameplan.
4. It is vulnerable to being "rushed down" while it tries to assemble its combo.
5. Probably some other things I'm not thinking of.
Regardless, all of those things are true about Iceborn Daring Poros. I don't think it fits any other category besides combo. And you beat it the same way you beat combo - rush it down, or force it to defend itself (which it cannot do). And incidentally, this is why the winrate is not out of control - it's quite vulnerable to some decks.
The winrate of poros is not nearly as high as people think it is.
It was very heavily played for, like, 2 days, and now it's dropped off very steeply. It's not actually as big of a problem as people initially thought it was.
On a related note - can we all, as a CCG community, just stop with the knee-jerk reactions? How many times do we have to get egg on our faces by crying for nerfs or making predictions with only 2 days of data in a volatile meta?
If poros is posting high winrates and high playrate in two weeks, THAT is the time to call for nerfs, to whine about it, etc etc. But not mere days after it even became a real thing, for basically the first time ever.
Side note - Iceborn Daring Poros is NOT an aggro deck. It's a combo deck. People who try to play it as aggro (by dropping daring poros as soon as they draw them) are gonna get their butts handed to them by any competent player.
You realize that this is impossible to attain, right?
If the enemy is big, it will have an enormous slice of the playrate pie, and you will fight it often (aka "every person I fight" in the common ccg slang).
If it does not have a huge playrate, it's too small to be "the big enemy."
That's just how the genre works. I don't know of any exceptions.
Look out folks - Poros will definitely be a real thing now.
I just popped into Twitch to check. Majinbae has over 700 viewers right now. I checked his schedule - technically, you're right that he doesn't stream daily. He skips Friday. And the weekend is not listed in his schedule, but he often streams on weekends as well.
Looks like Jason Fleurant took a break for the holidays, but he also streams basically every day.
And then you have European streamers like Alanzq and Freshlobster.
I have no idea where you got the idea that Graplr is the only streamer left.
I can't comment on how many people are playing, except to say that I recently dipped back into playing. It had been long enough that I was in the bottom of Iron IV. And none of my opponents have been even remotely what could be called "bots." Most of them have been playing shockingly well for being in the bottom of Iron.
(Former Masters player here)
So, spend 5 mana and you get a 3/3, rush, divine shield, taunt .... that seems pretty underwhelming.
The health nerf for both cards means that they mostly cannot survive more than one combat in many cases. One of the advantages of Merciless Hunter was being able to remove something and survive to gain a 2-for-1 advantage - that's a LOT less likely now.
One of the bonuses of Ruin Runner is being alive for multiple attacks, or being able to block and then also still attack. With only 3 health, it's almost certainly only getting in one attack turn and dying to a blocker.
So, I think the changes are more impactful than you're giving them credit for. Just look what one health nerf did to Fiora, Aphelios, and Rearguard (a much older example that was reverted to put him back to 2 health, but he was literally never used as a 3/1) - just as historical examples.
If I knew why I don't find the game fun presently, I'd be happy to give criticism that is more specific and constructive.
Unfortunately, there is nothing clear that I can point to for why I don't find it fun anymore. Maybe it's just me, who knows.
(A response to TheTrifarianGeneral)
All I can say is that I've basically stopped playing both LoR and Hearthstone for the last week or so. Have been playing LoR for a year and a half, and I played HS for about 2 years prior to that.
It may or may not say something significant about both games that I'm currently getting into Raid: Shadow Legends for the first time ever, and enjoying it more than either of the above card games.
Riot and Blizz both have some work to do to fix their games.
Maybe a Nami/Fizz, BW/Targon elusives deck.
This Senna looks completely badass, not gonna lie. And I think we're going to be surprised by the ways people find to use the accelerated spells feature.
In Wild, I'm still playing my Odd Demon Hunter deck, partly because it works, partly to level up my DH since he's only about 30.
I thought that was Viego, the one who is trying to cover the entire world in evil mist.
Yeah, but it's more the fact that you can get this from other poro cards - and in that case, it's not bad at all
This is a cool idea, but would be too inconsistent with so many 1x copies of cards. You'd need to hone the list a bit better to the most crucial cards, and put them up 3x each.