How to fix Quest Mage:

Now it is a fair card - and not a "2 mana: generate 5-7 mana this turn" nonsense we have today.

Nerfing a standard card because of a deck in wild? You do know we're dealing with Blizzard here, right?

Is quest mage still a problem even? It's even weaker against aggro now and keeps reno priest in check.

I have mentioned this before and I will say it again, the quest reward should read "refresh your mana crystals". OTK decks aren't inherently bad, in fact they can be good for the game. As iWatchUSleep mentioned, they keep super greedy control decks from taking over the meta. The change I suggested keeps the combo potential, but it doesn't stack with Archmage Vargoth and it doesn't give all of your minions Charge.

Quote From iWatchUSleep

Is quest mage still a problem even? It's even weaker against aggro now and keeps reno priest in check.

Yes.  It is.  Last month, across 3 regions, filtered for wild.

Sure some were secret mage, and a few reno, but vast majority were this mostly uninteractive deck that has just been named Tier S (God Tier) by tempostorn a few days ago.

It's worst matchup (Darkest Hour Warlock) got removed, not that that deck was fun to play against either.

Quote From Tempostorm

A new balance patch has hit the Hearthstone meta, bringing several changes to the Wild format! The nerf to Bloodbloom has all but killed off Darkest Hour Warlock completely. However, the nerf to Open the Waygate hasn’t quite had the same intended effect on the meta. That is no fault of the nerf to Open the Waygate itself. The card has been hit. There’s no denying that. However, the continued nerfs to Demon Hunter and the removal of Darkest Hour Warlock from the format have given the extra room needed for Quest Mage to breathe and effectively offset the nerf to Open the Waygate, given that the core powerhouses of the archetype—Sorcerer's Apprentice, Mana Cyclone, and Flamewaker—remain completely unscathed.

With its only reasonable counter now out of commision, Quest Mage now ascends to Tier S status. What does this mean for the future of the format? For now, it means that there has been a rift in the meta. The high Legend ranks of the Wild format have been warped and consumed by Quest Mage

...............snip.....................

Aggressive strategies have been able to bring it to Quest Mage . . . however, despite their best efforts, no archetype is putting up more than a 45% win rate in the matchup.

(bold my emphasis)

There will be lots of people who play this deck and love it - I assume it's fun to play it rather than face it.  I can't blame them.

But hopefully most such players will appreciate such a dominating deck that's >50% (>55%?) winrate against everything except a mirror isn't good for the format long term.  

By all means have crazy broken OP stuff in Wild.  But every deck must have a counter to stop any one deck getting way out of hand.  

Quote From og0

Quote From iWatchUSleep

Is quest mage still a problem even? It's even weaker against aggro now and keeps reno priest in check.

Yes.  It is.  Last month, across 3 regions, filtered for wild.

Sure some were secret mage, and a few reno, but vast majority were this mostly uninteractive deck that has just been named Tier S (God Tier) by tempostorn a few days ago.

It's worst matchup (Darkest Hour Warlock) got removed, not that that deck was fun to play against either.

(bold my emphasis)

There will be lots of people who play this deck and love it - I assume it's fun to play it rather than face it.  I can't blame them.

But hopefully most such players will appreciate such a dominating deck that's >50% (>55%?) winrate against everything except a mirror isn't good for the format long term.  

By all means have crazy broken OP stuff in Wild.  But every deck must have a counter to stop any one deck getting way out of hand.  

Tempo Storm's meta reports are about as reliable as Alex Jones' news reports.

But, I just now saw Rankstar posted a partial wild meta snapshot with quest mage being the top deck as well, so I guess you're right.

Welp, here's to waiting another 6 months for a new nerf, possibly.

I actually find Tempostorm meta report quite helpful (for wild at least), but perhaps you are right in that it's not reliable at all.

But I think in this situation the overwhelming power of this deck, and it's effect in the meta for all who play wild, can't be missed by any player or any meta report (including Team 5's internal one).

Quote From doingtheobvious

The problem is the having an extra turn in an of its self. Nerf the apprentice then more Arcane Giant lists will start showing up. Leave her alone.

I disagree. That's akin to saying an OTK deck having an OTK is a problem in and of itself.

The issue is that it is an OTK deck that can do significant mid pressure burst with Flamewaker and then kill you extremely quickly with the OTK, faster than what a standard OTK deck should be able to kill you.

Imo, the nerf needs to look at Mana Giant. Quest Mage did not see major competitve play on ladder, let alone a tier 1 or tier 0/S level deck before Mana Giant was a thing. If you look at the giant it honestly is way undercosted compared to all of the other giants. Hell, by simply meeting the 8 spell requirement of the quest it makes both giants 0 mana right away (Any wonder why the OTK is always so quick to be executed?) The mage has to do absolutely nothing out of the ordinary to do this, aside from simply drawing both giants, which is incredibly easy with their cheap cycling. 

My proposal would actually be aimed at slowing the progression of the OTK and massive bodies with one stone, instead of just jacking up the spell requirement for the quest again. 

Make Mana Giant 12 mana so it actually takes effort to drop an extra two massive bodies.

I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off. 
The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest. 
I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete. 
I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit. 

(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)

This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest. 

I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant. 

These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck. 

Maybe let the quest reward be used only for kill setup / board clears but make the result interactive. This can also make the quest be unnerfed.

I always get astouned by the amount of dislikes people throw at any post like this, jeez. The OP is right, that card is the problem in quest mage. Is not Vargoth, is not the Quest is THAT CARD only. But hey, they said they dont care about wild so... understandable people coming from standard and seeing this post will be like "wtf is this guy on? Sorcerer is trash." I'm used to autoconceding against this matches when I see i cant win turn 3. It's that fucked up. I honestly don't care anymore when I realized the only way to make them change something is to post on their wedding tweet lol. So stupid. Time for someone to post on another wedding post to fix this deck once and for all I guess ...but then again, wild players"s opinions are not considered anyway so... whatever. (dont forget to smash the dislike on my post guys, can we get it to -30, smash that dislike)

Quote From anchorm4n

Quote From Xarkkal

I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off. 
The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest. 
I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete. 
I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit. 

(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)

This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest. 

I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant. 

These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck. 

I'm not sure that's enough, actually. I played the deck a lot in March to grind my Mage to 1.000 wins and my impression is that most spells initially cost more than 0. Like OP said, it's the cheap spells for 1 or 2 mana that get cheaper with apprentice or glyph that make up most of the cycling. Or do I get the mechanic wrong and they wouldn't count towards the quest in your iteration if they get discounted? I always assumed such cards check for the initial state of the card, not an altered form it gained by buffs or the like.

In this iteration, 1-2 mana spells that are discounted down to 0 mana would NOT count towards the Quest. A minimum of 1 mana must be spent on the spell in order for it to count towards Quest progression. 

The altered form is what is read. Look at the interaction with Aeroponics between Garden Gnome and Anubisath Defender. When Aeroponics costs less than (5), it does not trigger Garden Gnome. And if you play Aeroponics for less than (5), it does not give you a (0) mana Anubisath Defender.

This change wouldn't nerf the Quest into oblivion, but it would prevent a huge swing turn with Sorcerer's Apprentice and Mana Cyclone or Evocation where the mage can complete their Quest by just dumping all the 0-cost spells they have in their hand. 

Quote From doingtheobvious

Quote From LyraSilvertongue

I disagree. That's akin to saying an OTK deck having an OTK is a problem in and of itself.

The issue is that it is an OTK deck that can do significant mid pressure burst with Flamewaker and then kill you extremely quickly with the OTK, faster than what a standard OTK deck should be able to kill you.

Wild is the home of broken synergies and I have no issue with OTK decks, so long as they have counter punches.

The point I was driving at is because of the nature of Time Warp, it allows for multiple wincons and nerfing just one combo piece will mean other combo pieces will take it's place.

And I understand that, but the point isn't to prevent other win conditions from taking the place of the old one. The goal is making sure that the current broken win condition can't keep consistently taking games on turn 8-9 anymore. If you nerf the correct pieces in the right way then when pieces are replaced you still have a viable OTK deck, but one that doesn't kill you before you can even reach turn 10.

Tbh, I don't find the wincon problematic, I find the deck's survival skill against Aggro problematic, being a Combo.

Namely, Flamewaker.

But QMage was completely fine until they introduced Licensed Adventurer and Violet Spellwing, reducing randomness and Tempo waste in order to complete the Quest to nonsensical levels.

Either way QMage is now just as slow as Secret Mage in closing games, while Secret Mage is way better at Tempo, so I'm not sure it deserves any more nerfs.

Quote From Xarkkal

I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off. 
The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest. 
I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete. 
I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit. 

(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)

This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest. 

Show Spoiler

I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant. 

Show Spoiler

These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck. 

The change you suggested for Open the Waygate feels weird and frankly, not very realistic. But I do like the idea. I think a better change would be to make it say "spend 15 (or so) mana on spells that didn't start in your deck" instead.

Quote From KANSAS

Quote From Xarkkal

I've been playing quest mage today to learn the deck and see for myself just how broken it is. I've never been a fan of it myself, and have rarely played the archetype. But the current form of it is just ridiculously easy to pull off. 
The biggest problem is the mana cheat. You end up casting so many spells for 0 mana, which can alone end up completing your quest. 
I was thinking about it today on what could be done to slow down the quest completion, but also not just completely kill the OTK potential. It is healthy to have OTK decks in the meta, but the random spell generation and low cost spells have been pushed in Mage to the max for too long, and has made this Quest just way too easy to complete. 
I think the best option would be to make it so spells that cost 0 do not count towards quest progression. That way, only spells you spend mana on would count towards your quest. This would also eliminate The Coin being such a huge benefit. 

(I have debated making it for spells that cost 2 or more just because of the amount of 1-cost spells that mage has, but I think starting with just removing the 0-cost spells should be enough to slow it down to an acceptable power level.)

This also leaves Sorcerer's Apprentice untouched. As much as I hate this card, it is actually perfectly fine. If this card was touched, it would break way too many Mage decks. Any nerfs need to be directed towards the Quest itself, and the Giants. My proposed nerf makes Sorcerer's Apprentice less powerful in the deck, since it would make all your 1-cost spells not count towards your quest. 

 

Show Spoiler

 

I also agree with Lyra that the cost of Mana Giant needs to be increased. I agree that it should start at 12-mana just like Arcane Giant. 

 

Show Spoiler

 

These two nerfs should slow down the speed of the OTK, while not completely destroying the archetype. This will allow for a less polarized meta that Quest Mage could still be a part of, without being a Tier-S deck. 

The change you suggested for Open the Waygate feels weird and frankly, not very realistic. But I do like the idea. I think a better change would be to make it say "spend 15 (or so) mana on spells that didn't start in your deck" instead.

That's a really good idea. It would force the archetype into a slower OTK that is focused on spending mana on the spells it generates, instead of just playing the cheapest spells possible. 

What the right amount of mana to be as the quest requirement is an interesting debate. I think 15 mana might be too little. But since you are dependent on what random spells you generate, you could easily get screwed over by a hand of low cost spells. I think at 15 mana, this could still end up getting completed by turn 6-7. Maybe 20-25?