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The all-spell restriction is not nothing, but it isn't a massive challenge either when all-spell mage has been given plenty of support over the past year and was already a functioning deck.

More egregious however, is that you can run minions and the Spring Water will still be significantly better than Arcane Intellect. A deck with 50% minions still gets a 2 mana draw 2 on average, and that deck restriction genuinely is nothing for mage.

it seems fun

Great communication.

Gives us an idea of internal thinking without necessarily committing - and making sure that's clear to all.  That's a good thing.

Glad to hear they at least think about wild sometimes :P

I had Divine Illumination and Rally the Troops, got 5/3. Often had too many cards on hand, and in the first few games I would go through the deck real fast.

Are you aware that what you say is only true if you construct your deck in a very restrictive way? (spells only, no minions) Why do you simplify so much?

By that rule of three I guess you also considered Reno Jackson very OP and wanted it nerfed... after all for only 6 mana you are fully healed and have a decent body!!

It is not neutral and if it was, this card is horrible in Rush-warrior and other heavy minion decks.

I can already feel bored trying to level up. Facing both Hunter and Paladin kinda make me want to stop playing. I'm not really rushing it, and so I'm lagging behind on level 80 with no battlepass. I feel lucky to be able to exploit 3000xp with weekly quest bug back then, along with the completion of 80% of bonus XP achievements.

I don't know if I have the urge to play that often anymore, just gonna do quests and wait on the miniset for now.

0 mana draw 2 card is too OP. Even restoring 2 mana when drawing both spell is generally good.

Why can't they see something this OP when they created cards like this?

I feel that this is one of the not-so-interesting-cardback. So bland. Even I can think of something to add like glowing/dripping water, or shining cores.

The Lich King's return for the 3rd expansion of this year confirmed Pog

@IksarHS We've seen a lot of Big Demon Hunter cards, but a lot of them haven't see any play at all, do you think that you've failed to deliver the optimal powerlevel of these cards or It's just missing a key card to become viable?

@imik_plays Control decks are hard work. We wanted to make a DH control deck that doesn't have one big "I-win" piece and instead runs multiple big cards and wins through an onslaught of big threats. (Source)

@imik_plays It's just very difficult to do that when other classes only need to run their one win condition and have a huge variety of board removals and lifegain. (Source)

@imik_plays I still think it's worth chasing that goal rather than giving in and making single win-condition cards, we'll get there. (Source)

I'm convinced that the control and big demon sides of DH will never work until they do something to make expensive cards work well alongside the outcast keyword. Or they shift things so that outcast is only really used on cards intended for aggro, and slow decks don't need them.

Still waiting for the day team5 starts realising that Refreshing Spring Water is basically busted, because why wouldn't it be? If this was a neutral card it'll be in every deck for the next 2 years. 0 mana draw 2, or even 2 mana draw 2 is about as good as it can get.

Got to say, this card makes me sweat more so than any amount of crab riding murlocs, fallen swords, ticket-loving demons, or white scorpions regularly seen in standard.

Well, it was datamined in patch 20.0 that there were some assets named after WC

Quote From kaladin

Quote From Marega

i told you it was a great deck

and all it took was queuing into mostly paladin haha

Good job! Sometimes you just gotta keep grinding until your luck turns, which it always does ;)

Battletag: Szafirmag#2937
Region: EU
Trade Only?: Yes

Quote From Almaniarra

You're mostly right what you said in OP but it seems like you also have no suggestions to it. I mean, I know you from this website and the old and now shitty one :D. You have great information about WoW and how the game mechanics is. If you have no solution how DH might be shaped around, I can't call anyone that can do it. So my first question is how it should have been implemented to the Hearthstone in your opinion ?

Tho If someone asks me that "How could demon hunter as a class be succesful in hearthstone mechanically?" I would say that "Metamorphosis" as a keyword for DH like how Choose one is a keyword for Druids only. Minions that can metamorphose when you do something like Druid of the Plains for example. Cards that have two states. Or even Outcast might be the metamorphosis effect. Like; card is 4 mana 3/4 normally, no tribes, just a night elf with horns, if you play it while it is right most or left most, it transforms into 5/4 with demon tag and some texts on it etc.

And another mechanic comes to my mind; Summons preys on your oppenents board. Think this as a whole class' mechanic. Benefits from that you hunt your prey which you summon for your opponent.

People might hate it but Mana Burn is one of the best cards for DH mechanically. 2nd is Magehunter, 3rd is Kayn Sunfury (Should have been without charge and more stats), 4th is Star Student Stelina, 5th is Metamorphosis, 6th is Consume Magic, 7th and 8th are Sigils, 9th is Glide, 10th is Felsteel Executioner, 11th and 12th maybe Blade Dance and Blur (but it feels like Blur should have been a dual class card with Rogue and Blade Dance should be tri-class card as Warrior/DH/Rogue) and the others are cards like Acrobatics, Stiltstepper etc. that has effects if you play the cards that you draw that turn because of surviving counterpart of the class. Any other cards in DH feels like they belong to other classes and I honestly think that DH would be shaped around disorienting and distratcting tools like Mana Burn. People hates mill etc., i know that but this distracting tools fit so well to DH in my mind. These all are my own opinions tho.

Distracting tools could work, as could the metamorphosis idea. I was initially hesitant about whether making the metamorphosis mechanic would encourage druids to work in the same way more often too, but I'm sure it will be fine. The distinction between burgle rogue and thief priest has always felt enough, so there's evidence the 'same' thing can be kept mechanically different over many years.

Having given it a bunch of extra thought, I think DH could be made a lot more unique with very minor changes that don't even need to introduce anything fundamentally new. The two options that seem most likely to me are:

1: Less outcast, more left/right stuff

Outcast is undoubtedly a mechanic that is unique to DH and interesting on paper. However it is not without its problems, and the way it encourages dumping your hand to get cards into the correct place is seriously stifling DH's ability to leverage its unique combination of strengths, which is a large part of why it doesn't feel very distinct in practice.

The solution is to lean into the whole left/right thing, but not have it attached to the outcast keyword so often. They are already starting to do this with Zai, the Incredible and Kurtrus Ashfallen (yes, Kurtrus has outcast, but he attacks the left- and right-most minions even without it). This way you can play DH with the unique aspect of being mindful of the positions of cards (both in hand and on board), without feeling like you have to ignore a huge part of the class to do it.

Alternatively, print tools that help decks with expensive cards actually use outcast cards. When DH was announced everyone expected something that reorders your hand. Maybe a Lorekeeper Polkelt-like card that orders your hand from lowest to highest cost, allowing you to get that 8-drop out of the way. But sadly no such card has been printed yet.

2: Proactive sigils

The sigils are also a great unique mechanic on paper. The ability to set things up over 2 turns would be a distinct approach DH can take to do whatever it is DH wants to do.

The sigils we currently have are both reactive, so they are quite limited in their ability to further your own plans. But if proactive sigils were printed, that were designed to enable your own next turn rather than counter your opponent's, then sigils become an integral part of the class experience, and not just some janky removal option.

So I'm asking, for them to not screw again, How should they implement Monks in Hearthstone to make it feels unique ?

As for monks, I honestly think they're going to be too close to existing classes to be a good choice to add to the game. DH is already showing that HS doesn't need another melee class, and monk would just be adding another one to the pile, even if it does have a unique mechanic like chi layered on top of it.

So if HS needs any more classes (very much up for debate!), it will probably want a spellcaster class that doesn't use weapons, or only very sparingly if they do. That probably rules out Death Knight too. Despite the restrictions on players in WoW, there are way more classes that exist in the Warcraft universe than you can actually play as, so you could easily find something.

The tinkerer (artificer in D&D terminology) is one that has potential without needing to think too much about it. It could be like the class manifestation of the GvG set, with lots of mechs and a spare-part mechanic that distinguishes it from everyone else. 

Quote From OldManSanns

In my eyes, the Venn diagram of even the original 9 classes is this giant blob that says everyone is way more alike then they are distinct. So from there, it's no surprise at all that Demon Hunter would have trouble distinguishing itself. That's my $0.02. 

The Venn diagram picture is a nice one, if a little difficult to draw for the 10 classes simultaneously, where you need to a ~10 dimensional hypersphere for each class to draw all the overlaps correctly. I think what is central to this thread is that every class should have a significant part of their Venn hypersphere with no (meaningful) overlaps at all, and that most classes do. Note that by 'significant' I could still mean a small fraction of the total hypersphere, but it is a part that routinely affects how the class plays.

In truth, DH only needs small tweaks to get there. At the moment outcast comes close, but the way in encourages aggro means it ends up making the class look even closer to hunter/rogue than it does without it. However, if they can harness the whole left-/right-most card thing in a way that didn't discourage using the expensive tools that hunter and rogue lack, then you'd be more or less set. Sigils are also extending DH's hypersphere into unexplored territory; they just need to become more than a gimmick for a single set.

Congrats Kaladin! You´ve made it :) Isn´t it cool to post in this other thread? I´m sure you won´t be downvoted in here. Hope you find more stuff to be finally happy about. GG WP!

Now i wonder, if the miniset will be WC themed as well. I surley hope so.

Thanks for sharing man! I play a lot of duels, and actually never came across this deck. Your guide is very helpful, I am currently in a 5-1 run with it and it’s been a lot of fun. The highlight was surely the bomb warrior that got me to 7 life before I could kick off my combo, including deck of lunacy to worryfree start drawing cards.

It’s been a blast and slightly paranoid of facing mages now... 😂

edit: finished on 9 wins, respectable first run I think

edit 2: second run was 1-3 😅

Blizzard going hard on these cosmetics!  Love it.  Gives me a goal to strive towards & a feeling of progression.

Wow!  Can't wait to get this.