From reading the comments against mill here, I feel like the real problem here is the lack of responses to it. If an archetype has almost no counterplays,it’ll be unfun, regardless of the skill involved. Which is a shame, since I myself like mill a lot. It’s a nice, original strategy that is underrepresented in HS IMO.
I guess my opinion is that mill should definitely have more support, but should also have more direct counters to it (like a card that returns burned cards to your deck, as mentioned here)
Unfortunately, if your main complaint is that you find meta decks/netdecking is making your play boring because you find yourself playing against the same decks all the time, I have some bad news... optimization and the desire to win will dictate the best decks will be played the most frequently, so you are probably going to have this problem regardless.
The point is i don't desire to win and that's already what shapes my hate around netdecking.
The point you missed is, I'm not whining about netdecks just because i can't win against them, I whine because I play against them. I don't care my ranks, my wins etc.
Automated games are boring me. I don't like to know what the hunter i am playing with will play on turn 1 and turn 2 and turn 3.
Also, You are missing a vital point too like the other guys here. I didn't claim that netdecking is bad. I just said I hate it. It was a personal taste. I am not saying it is good or bad. Even my first comment under the article was not about a common netdecking discussion. It was about off-meta decks and how these off-meta decks are not off-meta anymore by sharing them in an internet site.
Like i say above to another forummer, Don't try to provoke me to draw me into a common netdecking discussion.
I'm going to post a rebuttal, and since this is an area I believe in passionately, I'm probably going to get a little heated. I apologise in advance.
In my view, people who complain about netdecking are people who either don't understand how the internet works, don't understand how communities work, or who actively want the game to be weaker than it is.
Think about what you do when you make a deck you really enjoy. You post it online, or you talk to your friends about it, or what have you. That is a natural human action, something we picked up when we stopped roaming the savannah and started squatting in mud huts - we like to share things. We get pleasure from knowing that someone else enjoyed something we made or did. And, inevitably, when someone shares something they enjoy with you, you'll want to try it for yourself. That is a borderline inevitability in any game with a strong community.
Take that to its rational conclusion. The internet allows millions of people to share decks with one another. People, as a general rule, want to win; therefore, they will tend towards the decks that win more often than the ones that don't, all else being equal. This then leads to the strongest decks becoming better known, and becoming popular. Even if pro play didn't exist, the existence of the internet will lead to netdecking. It will happen with absolute certainty.
Then factor in the person making the deck. The vast majority of decks you'll see will be made by strangers, and you have no frame of reference as to whether that person has any idea what they're talking about. So, of course, when professional play exists, players will lean towards decks made by professional players because they have credentials. Again, this encourages a trend of netdecking.
But of course, none of this explains why netdecking is actually a good thing, other than (I suppose) the community effort to find and play good decks. And yet it is - netdecking is actually healthy for the game. It encourages a higher skill cap, enables balance changes to happen, and provides easy points of reference for people discussing the game.
"Higher skill cap? What?" I hear you say. "You don't have to make your own deck, that's lowering the skill cap!" I wholly disagree. Firstly, of course, because teching a deck to your tastes and to your local meta after netdecking it is a strong skill in and of itself, and it's one most people seem to be pretty terrible at. But more importantly, because concepts like hand-reading and gamestate knowledge cannot exist without semi-transparency of what an opponent's deck is. It's simply not possible to get any kind of real hand-read on an opponent if you have no idea what their deck is. The best you can make is a vaguely educated guess. And even that educated guess wouldn't really be possible without an established net-based metagame, since you have no idea how good your opponent really is - without knowing someone's skill level, they could have decked literally anything with faulty reasoning.
Balance-change wise - having established decks allows for statistics to be gathered on card performance much more easily. If everyone is playing random garbage they put together, the metrics are nowhere near as consistent and trends are more difficult to identify. You might not think that's an issue - and admittedly I'm on record as being strongly against the change-heavy tendencies lately. But think about the most obnoxious decks that have been changed and consider that if fewer people are playing those decks they're less likely to be spotted and changed.
I could go on - at length - but I'm sure nobody's reading at this point besides you. So, closing para:
To complain about netdecking - aside from lacking a basic understanding of human nature - is a fundamentally selfish action. You want to make your own decks - you can do so. You can do so all day long, and nobody doing anything is going to stop you. What you're complaining about, really, is not being able to win with the decks you've made because other people are playing better decks they've found elsewhere. So, in essence, you're upset because other people make better decks than you do, and give them out to people in the same way you do. And while I can understand how that would be upsetting, it's probably not something I'd go around broadcasting, personally.
Thanks for that long explanation and reasoning about netdecking.
But there is a point you missed and it is a vital point;
I didn't claim that netdecking is good or bad, I just said i hate it and my reasoning was deck diversity and how it bores me to play against same decks.
There were nothing to defend because i didn't call netdecking is bad. I just said i don't like it.
I really don't understand why people who netdecks are offended. If you like ice-cream and I don't like and I tell that "I hate ice-cream" would you defend ice-cream like you defend netdecking ?
It was a personal statement, I didn't call netdecking bad. I already know the reasoning and wisdom behind netdecking and approving the wisdom but still hate netdecking because of my personal tastes.
I think you need to stop looking and learn to see.
Netdecking was not even the topic of my comment. The topic was off-meta decks and how those decks are not off-meta anymore by sharing them on the internet.
Why are you guys trying to provoke me by drawing me to a common netdecking discussion ?
If you really want to draw me that discussion i only will say this;
I have quoted the part I really do not care because succession and high skill cap is only an illusion for this game. It doesn't reward you anything. It doesn't give you any boosts besides "oh see!? I'M A PRO NOW !" feeling.
I don't play this game to boost my ego, I play this game because i enjoy it. Hitting legend once is enough to get a cardback, noone will gain anything from this game, any money, any in-game rewards etc. I don't care for wins. I care only my enjoyment and i'm saying that it bores me to play against netdecks. Don't care their succession or winrates.
And I know how internet works and don't like that either. Do I have to ? You can defend netdecking or internet however you want. You can defend anything however you want but you can't wait people to like everything you like. We are different in our personal tastes and my comment was a personal taste. What you are doing here is like discussing favorite colors of ours. "Hey man !? Why don't you like red ? Some t-shirts might be really cool in red how can't you know that and don't like that super cool collor ?"
Funny really. I am saying again; I don't care how netdecks saves times to be successful, how they are tested by huge amount of people so their success are guaranteed etc. I don't care wins in this game. I just don't want to play against same decks over and over again and since there is not a game mode which we can ban some decks to not play against, I have a right to complain about netdecks. I can understand that people plays netdecks in ranked, i can also understand that people are practicing their netdecks on normal mode to be successful in ranked but this causes that there is no current mode for me to play against different decks. Same decks over and over again.
I don't want to be able to live this; "oh it is a hunter, so his first move will be dropping that sidequest or that 1/3 minion, oh turn 2 here Phase stalker comes, oh turn 3 here comes bla bla. Same shit over and over again. I don't even play 3 games in a row with same deck. It really bores me and highlighting it again; IT IS A PERSONAL TASTE and STATEMENT !
Sorry but you can't defend something that I didn't attack. OR you can do it by doing this is a silly move. You are defending a safe zone, good luck on wasting your time to do that.
How's it going everyone, my name is Naem and I'm playing Hearthstone since 2014 (although not consistent).
I've reached legend a few times, but I didn't have the consistency to go for it every month (and sometimes just not the time to do so).
So I was thinking about making content for a while now, but I always struggled because of the fear of just failing on the first shot. Well guess what, I'm trying it anyways now!
So I will update this first post here with the newest video and put the older ones in a reply below! Have fun watching!
Completely agree. Gives more incentive for Grandmasters to actually try.
If they don't want to be there (i.e. Seiko playing TFT during a match), they should be replaced by people who do. It's more fun to watch players who actually want to win than players phoning it in.
If we go by milling in terms of hearthstone, that was just making the opponent overdraw, I think that would be fair since most ways to print cards in this vein are just cards that'd draw both cards, which is something many decks would want it would still most likely decimate control decks, but I think that creates more of a challenge in making a control deck that is able to pressure someone down instead of durdling until late game to slam a bunch of stats in play.
By this do you mean a control deck that is a midrange deck? If your control decks strategy is to play a lot of high value minions on curve throughout the game then it is no longer a control deck.
Looking back at what I typed, it wasn't very clear what I meant. What I should have said was to make control decks less in the vein control warrior has been the last year or two, where you get to the late game and just win via slowly outvaluing the opponent/having the opponent concede because the match is going essentially nowhere. That being said I do think there is a line between just a midrange deck and a control deck but that is beside the point.Quote From FortyDust
I think it's safe to say that when someone talks about "mill decks" or "mill as a strategy," they are talking about killing the opponent by running them out of cards -- milling as a win condition.
Forcing the occasional overdraw has never been controversial as far as I know.
Thats fair, the only time I can remember people complaining about overdraw is either when they are playing a control deck or when kingsbane mill rogue was a thing in wild which basically was just Kingsbane Rogue to begin with.
Duplatransmogrifier replaces your minions with NEW copies of the minion, meaning that no buffs carry over (whether they are spells cast on the minion or changes made in bob's tavern). The statues will all still cost 9 Mana
Thanks again for the advice. I beat it the same run.
I had a Priest deathrattle deck with the free Obsidian, Kel’Thuzad and the quest. Mid game when he was starved of cards and I completed my quest, Amara-ed, Duplatransmogrifiered her and had 8/8 taunt heal to 40 for the rest of the game.
Why, just why? Its a broken card that should consider itself lucky it doesn't get nuked to oblivion.
it's the best card ever printed, in every category. The bullet point was a joke but I sure wouldn't complain.
And for that reason it should not be in classic. Its way more powerful than most other legendaries in hearthstone history, let alone in classic. Its already creating problems for team5 in terms of card design. Its not getting calls for nerfs now because its rotating this April, but its not very far from the chopping block mind you.
I've seen the prismatic lens x tip the scales combo, but adding a highlander late game for when your deck no longer has duplicates in it is inspired stuff :)
I'd consider removing one of the murlocs in place of a youthful brewmaster to recur one your lategame highlander battlecries. Also to get finley in your hand to use his battlecry after he gets pulled out of your deck by tip the scales.
5 giants in that cyclone deck...and zero healing...how can it handle aggro?
It only struggles hard against face hunter (all mages currently struggle with face hunter). Against Galakrond Warrior, if you got your giants going fast you can easily steal the game from them. Against Galakrond warlock, same strat, but cyclone has a decent chance to help you out.
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Stampeding Kodo?
Nezuko's Legend Murloc Paladin
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Nope, though I really like your guess.
It's a battlecry minion, that part is correct.
also: welcome to OoC and to the card treasure hunt!
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
The Marsh Queen?
"Small" and "weak" to me suggests 1-cost minions.
"Juicy bones" suggests carnivore?
"Call" battlecry and Queen Carnassa's roar?
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
I like them small, I like them weak
Juicy bones are what I seek
I like them weak, I like them small
Listen up and hear my call!
Mage Needs Buff
So, is anybody experimenting with Mage decks other than Highlander in standard? Or did everybody already give up?
Nezuko's Legend Murloc Paladin
Wha'ts the problem?
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
yes you got it; it was Loose Specimen
Your go :)
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Loose Specimen?
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
yes its a beast but not that one.
Should milling be a genuine supported strategy in standard Hearthstone?
From reading the comments against mill here, I feel like the real problem here is the lack of responses to it. If an archetype has almost no counterplays,it’ll be unfun, regardless of the skill involved. Which is a shame, since I myself like mill a lot. It’s a nice, original strategy that is underrepresented in HS IMO.
I guess my opinion is that mill should definitely have more support, but should also have more direct counters to it (like a card that returns burned cards to your deck, as mentioned here)
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Evasive Chimaera? It’s a beast that was never seen until recently, and the “can’t be targeted” means he can’t be the “caster”, as in cast spells
[Game] Card Treasure Hunt (The Resurrection Attempt)
Thanks @ArngrimUndting !
I might be an Amalgam at first look
But I don't have a pirate's hook
Deathstalker Rexxar should be my master
Even he wouldn't be my caster
Off-Meta Offerings from HSReplay
The point is i don't desire to win and that's already what shapes my hate around netdecking.
The point you missed is, I'm not whining about netdecks just because i can't win against them, I whine because I play against them. I don't care my ranks, my wins etc.
Automated games are boring me. I don't like to know what the hunter i am playing with will play on turn 1 and turn 2 and turn 3.
Also, You are missing a vital point too like the other guys here. I didn't claim that netdecking is bad. I just said I hate it. It was a personal taste. I am not saying it is good or bad. Even my first comment under the article was not about a common netdecking discussion. It was about off-meta decks and how these off-meta decks are not off-meta anymore by sharing them in an internet site.
Like i say above to another forummer, Don't try to provoke me to draw me into a common netdecking discussion.
Off-Meta Offerings from HSReplay
Thanks for that long explanation and reasoning about netdecking.
But there is a point you missed and it is a vital point;
I didn't claim that netdecking is good or bad, I just said i hate it and my reasoning was deck diversity and how it bores me to play against same decks.
There were nothing to defend because i didn't call netdecking is bad. I just said i don't like it.
I really don't understand why people who netdecks are offended. If you like ice-cream and I don't like and I tell that "I hate ice-cream" would you defend ice-cream like you defend netdecking ?
It was a personal statement, I didn't call netdecking bad. I already know the reasoning and wisdom behind netdecking and approving the wisdom but still hate netdecking because of my personal tastes.
I think you need to stop looking and learn to see.
Netdecking was not even the topic of my comment. The topic was off-meta decks and how those decks are not off-meta anymore by sharing them on the internet.
Why are you guys trying to provoke me by drawing me to a common netdecking discussion ?
If you really want to draw me that discussion i only will say this;
I have quoted the part I really do not care because succession and high skill cap is only an illusion for this game. It doesn't reward you anything. It doesn't give you any boosts besides "oh see!? I'M A PRO NOW !" feeling.
I don't play this game to boost my ego, I play this game because i enjoy it. Hitting legend once is enough to get a cardback, noone will gain anything from this game, any money, any in-game rewards etc. I don't care for wins. I care only my enjoyment and i'm saying that it bores me to play against netdecks. Don't care their succession or winrates.
And I know how internet works and don't like that either. Do I have to ? You can defend netdecking or internet however you want. You can defend anything however you want but you can't wait people to like everything you like. We are different in our personal tastes and my comment was a personal taste. What you are doing here is like discussing favorite colors of ours. "Hey man !? Why don't you like red ? Some t-shirts might be really cool in red how can't you know that and don't like that super cool collor ?"
Funny really. I am saying again; I don't care how netdecks saves times to be successful, how they are tested by huge amount of people so their success are guaranteed etc. I don't care wins in this game. I just don't want to play against same decks over and over again and since there is not a game mode which we can ban some decks to not play against, I have a right to complain about netdecks. I can understand that people plays netdecks in ranked, i can also understand that people are practicing their netdecks on normal mode to be successful in ranked but this causes that there is no current mode for me to play against different decks. Same decks over and over again.
I don't want to be able to live this; "oh it is a hunter, so his first move will be dropping that sidequest or that 1/3 minion, oh turn 2 here Phase stalker comes, oh turn 3 here comes bla bla. Same shit over and over again. I don't even play 3 games in a row with same deck. It really bores me and highlighting it again; IT IS A PERSONAL TASTE and STATEMENT !
Sorry but you can't defend something that I didn't attack. OR you can do it by doing this is a silly move. You are defending a safe zone, good luck on wasting your time to do that.
Quest Trading - Play A Friend!
Battletag: Gambit#2640
Region: EU
Trade only: Yes, you go first.
Done.
A new Hearthstone channel approaches!
How's it going everyone, my name is Naem and I'm playing Hearthstone since 2014 (although not consistent).
I've reached legend a few times, but I didn't have the consistency to go for it every month (and sometimes just not the time to do so).
So I was thinking about making content for a while now, but I always struggled because of the fear of just failing on the first shot. Well guess what, I'm trying it anyways now!
So I will update this first post here with the newest video and put the older ones in a reply below! Have fun watching!
Cheers,
Naem_
Latest video: QUEST DRUID feat. NOMI (01.03.2020)
Welcome Inn
IMO, is the best Card Back ever. :D
Hearthstone Masters in 2020 - More Events, New Grandmasters Structure, Crowdfunding Returns
I having haven't been following hearthstone most of 2019 (hiatus from the game), how does the Crowd Funding work?
Is this the one you buy Packs and the earnings contribute to the prize pool?
EDIT: eh nevermind lol. I didn't notice "Lei Shen" was a link lol.
Hearthstone Masters in 2020 - More Events, New Grandmasters Structure, Crowdfunding Returns
Completely agree. Gives more incentive for Grandmasters to actually try.
If they don't want to be there (i.e. Seiko playing TFT during a match), they should be replaced by people who do. It's more fun to watch players who actually want to win than players phoning it in.
Should milling be a genuine supported strategy in standard Hearthstone?
Thats fair, the only time I can remember people complaining about overdraw is either when they are playing a control deck or when kingsbane mill rogue was a thing in wild which basically was just Kingsbane Rogue to begin with.
Quick question re: Duplatransmogrifier
Thanks again for the advice. I beat it the same run.
I had a Priest deathrattle deck with the free Obsidian, Kel’Thuzad and the quest. Mid game when he was starved of cards and I completed my quest, Amara-ed, Duplatransmogrifiered her and had 8/8 taunt heal to 40 for the rest of the game.
What NEW thing do you think would benefit Hearthstone?
And for that reason it should not be in classic. Its way more powerful than most other legendaries in hearthstone history, let alone in classic. Its already creating problems for team5 in terms of card design. Its not getting calls for nerfs now because its rotating this April, but its not very far from the chopping block mind you.
Nezuko's Legend Murloc Paladin
I've seen the prismatic lens x tip the scales combo, but adding a highlander late game for when your deck no longer has duplicates in it is inspired stuff :)
I'd consider removing one of the murlocs in place of a youthful brewmaster to recur one your lategame highlander battlecries. Also to get finley in your hand to use his battlecry after he gets pulled out of your deck by tip the scales.
Standard Meta Report #17 - December 29, 2019 - January 5, 2020
It only struggles hard against face hunter (all mages currently struggle with face hunter). Against Galakrond Warrior, if you got your giants going fast you can easily steal the game from them. Against Galakrond warlock, same strat, but cyclone has a decent chance to help you out.