that way you get rid of the "awkwardness" of mind meld I don't see why Swim thinks the card doesn't fit Bilgewater, there is a 1 cost random minion generation theme in the region, and a lot of card draw/fleeting.
Fizz is elusive post Mind Meld and so is Teemo, so here is the solution of getting chump blocked, also there are some 1 drops that have elusive or even fearsome as well, running bad cards in your deck to make a bad card work is never a good idea.
8 mana draw engine is unplayable, at 6 mana he is more reasonable.
He is basically a Gadgetzan Auctioneer, guess they compared him to gadgetzan when redesigning him.
He was seeing 0 play so I don't see what are you complaining about, and he always had to survive the targeting to draw, that's how most cards work in runeterra.
With elusive the card had power where he didn't need to have to serve his main purpose of drawing cards.
at 4 hp he is hard to remove since he will rarely engage in combat.
Also you can cast map on him and gain elusive.. which is 100% going in a deck using him.
Took me 2 hours but I beat it, used highlander galakround priest for all challenges was quite fun but ended up too quickly :( maybe I should try with another deck..
Every boss I looked at I saw that the hero power was sort of attrition based board control so if I played a control deck I could beat them.. and I was right.
Luckly this time they restricted it to standard so I didn't use the usual renolock and I had to look for another control deck to use :D
The Braum change is HUGE, I mean he can now kill chump blockers and also Black Market Merchant also the almost guranteed poro generation makes the card not that much of a tempo loss when not leveled up or having significant niche challenges.
also the 4 slot is mostly uncontested while the 3 slot is crowded in the decks braum wants to go into..
this and all the other 2 poro changes opens up a posibility of a competitive poro deck.
also crimson decks were not playing braum, now they are probably gonna implement him much more.
Anivia was underpowered indeed seems like in the end they gone with the mana cost change rather than a rework of sort like they did with braum.
at 6 mana you can play her with Chronicler of Ruin and duplicate her for probably the rest of the game, also she curves into the rekindlererBADCARDNAME so overall her power with shadow isles is boosted dramatically.
I never played WOW but I know there are a lot of veteran achievements there that take way more time than completing the classic collection.
I don't see a downside to encourage collecting cards, I play the game mainly for that, there were some actual rewards for collecting certain tribes (pirates and murlocs) back before WoG
ANyway I think we will see once they announce the achievement/reward system overhaul.
The health change isn't that big of a deal because you can just play pilfered goods at burst speed so you still get your discounts, but now merchants die to withering wail and vile feast which is very significant. Grabbing from the bottom just means that you aren't denying your opponent draws, which pilfered goods should have never done in the first place. Should lead to fewer instances of like hey I got your undying you were just about to draw and now my board survives ruination and yours doesn't even though that's the entire point of your deck.
About pilfered goods thing yes it's unchanged, but I will argue that would just destroyed the whole mechanic, they probably looked at the win rate I assume it's not high enough to hit 2 cards instead of 1 they hit.
the hp nerf is significant the card is played as a 6 cards package, the allegiance is not always played but when you play pilfer you play the merchant and the goods so cutting 25% of the stats of a card is significant power drop.
Now about the top vs bottom.. except the obvious Freljord match up IT DOESN'T MATTER also Riot stated that on the patch notes (if for some reason you don't believe this reasoning) a card in your deck is totally random most of the time it's from the top or bottom.. it doesn't matter at all, if the toss mechanic was from the top of the deck it would be the exact same mechanic (Except anti synergy with freljord.. but freljord deep isn't a thing (yet)) for example.
They might have stolen your undying and ruination or that farmer guy that is totally useless the probabilities are the same and they are as likely to get it no matter from where they steal the card it's purely psychological.
I used 'everything' in the viewpoint of whoever implemented the reward when the Basic and Classic (or 'Expert set' as it was back then) sets were everything. I would not even assume someone with a full Classic set has any other set complete.
Regardless, I'm not sure handing out significant rewards for finishing a set is even in good taste since it puts a major pay wall in front of most players. Granted the Classic set is a special case in this regard as simply playing the game for a long time will eventually get you there, especially with the recent extension of the no-duplicate rule.
That is not to say I would be against them handing out a card back for it: maybe a version of the Classic card back with the gold a little more shiny. Card backs are so minor that people wouldn't care that it rewarded those who already have large collections, but a hero would be a bit too much.
Card back would be more reasonable than 100 gold at least, a hero wouldn't be too weird tbh.. I mean it's not really a pay wall but more like something you can earn if you play for a long while.. since they refuse to change the classic pack reward in tavern brawls to 100 gold (there it's a better reward..) you will eventually complete the classic set (now with the rule change about 2 years sooner than I did, I believe.) so it's something to aim for.. while not being overly so much.. in the end of the day it's a gif with voicelines and just a cosmetic.. it's not much more of a paywall than any preorder hero..
I could see a really iconic HS or WOW character that is very known for HS players..
I mean is it OP? I don't think it was/is that strong.. just annoying to play against as they steal your cards, I mean the 1 hp change to the merchant is quite significant power drop and they hit the freljord matchup which is probably the most frustrating.
At least they lowered the frustration with the top-> bottom change (which I would be disappointed if they didn't implement) and 1 stat drop in a 2/2 is 25$ less stats for the unit now it isn't even a decent blocker anymore...
it will change some %s for sure.. you don't want to totally overnerf it as well..
The patch notes are not always about what got changed sometimes about what didn't got changed, so control states heimer not getting nerfed is a big oversight.. I say probably.. but maybe the buffs give access to decks that are good against that deck, the juggernaut buff seems quite significant to me.
will need to discuss it later when everyone will see the patch notes in English (without google translate).
I mean if they wanted to they could've changed it.. and give people a retroactive reward..
it feels bad for a long time player.. to only get.. 100 gold for completing a full set..
I wouldn't call myself having everything I am missing half of every set except the classic set which I was missing around 20 cards before the rule change, if not for that rule change I would still miss 20 cards for sure seeing how the classic set is 200+ cards large and they fill it with garbage cards instead of leaving it as is.
By completed I mean still missing 4 epics (I know I said not to open classic packs but I opened one just cause opening packs is fun).
And I got 100 gold, I didn't screenshot it, I know I am not the first to point that out.. but I wonder.. what the developer who implemented the reward thought to himself back in 2013.. I play since 2014 it took me 6 years to finally have a copy of every single classic card and I am not even a F2P player,
There could be a collector card back or maybe a hero portrait to have for getting the full classic set but nope, 100 gold.
So I named myself doublesummon, I was aware back then when I started using this nickname it's a yugioh card name (hence the art used here) but actually it all started when I was choosing a summoner name in league of legends, so yep, I summon twice that's what I do.
this is some sort of combo card but it only works on minions you play this turn so I think the cost is ok at 3.. probably overpowered cause you can cost reduce it :D but who cares it's a custom card.
I think they will be changed heavily even a rework of sort.. (Edit: this post got longer than I thought it would be..)
I can see them going in many directions, specially since TF depends on that mechanic to level up in a deck he is in, also it's kind of Bildgewater's main mechanic together with plunder.
People have been complaining about the mechanic being unfun to play against so at this point.. it really doesn't matter how balanced or not the mechanic ACTUALLY is.
I will tackle this problem with the main complains I saw around reddit/the forums or how I think it is. (spoiler tag cause it's too long)
Show Spoiler
1. The first obvious one is "the top of the deck" Freljord has a big theme of top of the deck buffing,generating yetis and also a champion reward which is generated on top of your deck , this not only negates those buff/cards but steals them, which is a HUGE "feels bad" moment for those kind of players (I actually quite like that type of archtype.. but I wouldn't play it as long as yoink (so that's the term now?) is at it is), the change is simple-> steal from the bottom of your deck.
2. The second point is stealing as opposed to the priest mechanic in HS that copies, I think this is overrated, there's little difference between stealing and copying in games that don't go to deckout, and those that do.. are mostly toss decks anyway so you can think of those cards as being tossed cards and essentially they are helping you to reach deep so, als it helps you to get to your champion faster.
3. Now the biggest point about those cards.. is that they are too efficient.. and grant card advantage for low costs and on top of that there's the card reduction.. I can see the Black Market Merchant getting his discount totally removed, andPilfered Goods.. I think without the merchant discount.. is probably more manageable now I would suggest a mana increase but I think it will kill that deck entirely, and that's not how Riot did stuff so far.
4. playing around stuff that you wouldn't otherwise, there's 2 ways to go about it.. one is to reveal stolen cards which actually makes sense as they are originally yours, the other is to make the stolen cards fleeting which will reduce the power level of the card draw substantially.
TL;DR in conclusion those are the changes that I think are the options that are viable for the solution of the frustration:
Sorry about being bold.. but are you guys gonna complain about every viable card in the game? I can see 3 nerf threads in the home page.
Some cards need to be strong for the game to be fun you know?
I don't think the card is toxic by any means, there are worse offenders in the game.. like Unyielding Spirit, Will of Ionia and Atrocity, this card is an understated card that if left unchecked wins you the game if you can't deal with it you need to make your deck.. be able to deal with it, it's a 5 mana , 4 hp backline "engine" which brings almost no tempo gain since your opponent is not gonna defend or attack with it.
I think a card needs to be nerfed when it's just too good as stand alone/auto include(Will of Ionia, old Deny), doesn't have a way to interact with it or overcentralizing(like pre nerf Hecarim).
There are tonnes of ways to deal with 4 hp backliners in every region and this one even comes kind of late as in turn 5.. if you lose to this card a lot maybe add more ways to deal with the card?
Because it's quite bad without building a deck around it it doesn't get that big otherwise. you can't really look at the card in a vacuum.
It's not that simple, here you are mentioning the most toxic card in the game currently, Will of Ionia, because of this card cards that cost 5 or more rarely ever see any play because you will just get a massive tempo loss for playing those cards.
I think there needs to be some change to atrocity and will if anything I will be surprised if the they who endure itself gets changed.
Anyway we *will* see tomorrow what they are planning (unless they moved patch notes day to Tuesday and I forgot..)
Think that card won't be touched.. removing overwhelm will just make it easy to chump block, and giving it fearsome is just an "easy" solution, freljord has a lot to do with overwhelm it's a theme the region have, giving it fearsome which is more of a SI/Noxus mechanic feels probably bad.. but if they were to nerf the card I could totally see it being the case.
I will stress again how annoying it is that they did this brawl NOW and not 2 months ago..
It could be the BEST brawl.. if they did it.. you know.. on the first week or before release at least that way you get a geniune first experience of full decks before you go to craft stuff..
or maybe bring back whizbang? I never played that card but I really think they should incorporate either whizbang itself or a whizbang mechanic as a permanent feature I don't see why they let him rotate.. people really liked playing that card..
Yeah, it'd be nice if they'd done it earlier and I get what you're saying about Whizbang. But imagine if it WAS earlier and people crafted Libram Paladin cards based on this Brawl... let's just agree HS could still use some work when it comes to allowing experimentation and deckbuilding mistakes without feeling like you have to spend a lot of money.
I think libram paladin would have much worse wr without the 2 buffs it got.. It's actually decent on ladder rn.. So it shows on this brawl.
I will stress again how annoying it is that they did this brawl NOW and not 2 months ago..
It could be the BEST brawl.. if they did it.. you know.. on the first week or before release at least that way you get a geniune first experience of full decks before you go to craft stuff..
or maybe bring back whizbang? I never played that card but I really think they should incorporate either whizbang itself or a whizbang mechanic as a permanent feature I don't see why they let him rotate.. people really liked playing that card..
Did you also run von yipp? since it's obvious you don't have to rely 100% on mind meld you need to have back up plans? were your champions fizz/teemo?
I see a Mind Meld deck as a finisher for a Fizz/Teemo deck that runs both Professor von Yipp and Suit Up!.
that way you get rid of the "awkwardness" of mind meld I don't see why Swim thinks the card doesn't fit Bilgewater, there is a 1 cost random minion generation theme in the region, and a lot of card draw/fleeting.
something like this:
Fizz is elusive post Mind Meld and so is Teemo, so here is the solution of getting chump blocked, also there are some 1 drops that have elusive or even fearsome as well, running bad cards in your deck to make a bad card work is never a good idea.
No wild makes it more challenging, and it opens up design space where the solution to the bosses isn't as immediate.
8 mana draw engine is unplayable, at 6 mana he is more reasonable.
He is basically a Gadgetzan Auctioneer, guess they compared him to gadgetzan when redesigning him.
He was seeing 0 play so I don't see what are you complaining about, and he always had to survive the targeting to draw, that's how most cards work in runeterra.
With elusive the card had power where he didn't need to have to serve his main purpose of drawing cards.
at 4 hp he is hard to remove since he will rarely engage in combat.
Also you can cast map on him and gain elusive.. which is 100% going in a deck using him.
Took me 2 hours but I beat it, used highlander galakround priest for all challenges was quite fun but ended up too quickly :( maybe I should try with another deck..
Every boss I looked at I saw that the hero power was sort of attrition based board control so if I played a control deck I could beat them.. and I was right.
Luckly this time they restricted it to standard so I didn't use the usual renolock and I had to look for another control deck to use :D
it's possible, but you can complete the last week quest by beating the last boss of the first chapter again.
We need a salt thread for runeterra just like with HS
Although I double checked I have all of them marked as 2/2 it shows that I am missing cards.
I will add also other points of feedback as well:
-The page numbering is wrong.. it starts from 0 and goes to up to number of pages -1 which is weird.
-Would be nice to get some more statistics in the progress page, how many of each rarity are missing and maybe from each set as well...
-Maybe add some kind of wish list?
Edit: I think those "missing cards" are the hero skins? I remember Arthas publishing Aranna as a basic set card
The Braum change is HUGE, I mean he can now kill chump blockers and also Black Market Merchant also the almost guranteed poro generation makes the card not that much of a tempo loss when not leveled up or having significant niche challenges.
also the 4 slot is mostly uncontested while the 3 slot is crowded in the decks braum wants to go into..
this and all the other 2 poro changes opens up a posibility of a competitive poro deck.
also crimson decks were not playing braum, now they are probably gonna implement him much more.
Anivia was underpowered indeed seems like in the end they gone with the mana cost change rather than a rework of sort like they did with braum.
at 6 mana you can play her with Chronicler of Ruin and duplicate her for probably the rest of the game, also she curves into the rekindlererBADCARDNAME so overall her power with shadow isles is boosted dramatically.
I never played WOW but I know there are a lot of veteran achievements there that take way more time than completing the classic collection.
I don't see a downside to encourage collecting cards, I play the game mainly for that, there were some actual rewards for collecting certain tribes (pirates and murlocs) back before WoG
ANyway I think we will see once they announce the achievement/reward system overhaul.
About pilfered goods thing yes it's unchanged, but I will argue that would just destroyed the whole mechanic, they probably looked at the win rate I assume it's not high enough to hit 2 cards instead of 1 they hit.
the hp nerf is significant the card is played as a 6 cards package, the allegiance is not always played but when you play pilfer you play the merchant and the goods so cutting 25% of the stats of a card is significant power drop.
Now about the top vs bottom.. except the obvious Freljord match up IT DOESN'T MATTER also Riot stated that on the patch notes (if for some reason you don't believe this reasoning) a card in your deck is totally random most of the time it's from the top or bottom.. it doesn't matter at all, if the toss mechanic was from the top of the deck it would be the exact same mechanic (Except anti synergy with freljord.. but freljord deep isn't a thing (yet)) for example.
They might have stolen your undying and ruination or that farmer guy that is totally useless the probabilities are the same and they are as likely to get it no matter from where they steal the card it's purely psychological.
Card back would be more reasonable than 100 gold at least, a hero wouldn't be too weird tbh.. I mean it's not really a pay wall but more like something you can earn if you play for a long while.. since they refuse to change the classic pack reward in tavern brawls to 100 gold (there it's a better reward..) you will eventually complete the classic set (now with the rule change about 2 years sooner than I did, I believe.) so it's something to aim for.. while not being overly so much.. in the end of the day it's a gif with voicelines and just a cosmetic.. it's not much more of a paywall than any preorder hero..
I could see a really iconic HS or WOW character that is very known for HS players..
I mean is it OP? I don't think it was/is that strong.. just annoying to play against as they steal your cards, I mean the 1 hp change to the merchant is quite significant power drop and they hit the freljord matchup which is probably the most frustrating.
At least they lowered the frustration with the top-> bottom change (which I would be disappointed if they didn't implement) and 1 stat drop in a 2/2 is 25$ less stats for the unit now it isn't even a decent blocker anymore...
it will change some %s for sure.. you don't want to totally overnerf it as well..
The patch notes are not always about what got changed sometimes about what didn't got changed, so control states heimer not getting nerfed is a big oversight.. I say probably.. but maybe the buffs give access to decks that are good against that deck, the juggernaut buff seems quite significant to me.
will need to discuss it later when everyone will see the patch notes in English (without google translate).
I mean if they wanted to they could've changed it.. and give people a retroactive reward..
it feels bad for a long time player.. to only get.. 100 gold for completing a full set..
I wouldn't call myself having everything I am missing half of every set except the classic set which I was missing around 20 cards before the rule change, if not for that rule change I would still miss 20 cards for sure seeing how the classic set is 200+ cards large and they fill it with garbage cards instead of leaving it as is.
By completed I mean still missing 4 epics (I know I said not to open classic packs but I opened one just cause opening packs is fun).
And I got 100 gold, I didn't screenshot it, I know I am not the first to point that out.. but I wonder.. what the developer who implemented the reward thought to himself back in 2013.. I play since 2014 it took me 6 years to finally have a copy of every single classic card and I am not even a F2P player,
There could be a collector card back or maybe a hero portrait to have for getting the full classic set but nope, 100 gold.
So I named myself doublesummon, I was aware back then when I started using this nickname it's a yugioh card name (hence the art used here) but actually it all started when I was choosing a summoner name in league of legends, so yep, I summon twice that's what I do.
this is some sort of combo card but it only works on minions you play this turn so I think the cost is ok at 3.. probably overpowered cause you can cost reduce it :D but who cares it's a custom card.
I think they will be changed heavily even a rework of sort.. (Edit: this post got longer than I thought it would be..)
I can see them going in many directions, specially since TF depends on that mechanic to level up in a deck he is in, also it's kind of Bildgewater's main mechanic together with plunder.
People have been complaining about the mechanic being unfun to play against so at this point.. it really doesn't matter how balanced or not the mechanic ACTUALLY is.
I will tackle this problem with the main complains I saw around reddit/the forums or how I think it is. (spoiler tag cause it's too long)
2. The second point is stealing as opposed to the priest mechanic in HS that copies, I think this is overrated, there's little difference between stealing and copying in games that don't go to deckout, and those that do.. are mostly toss decks anyway so you can think of those cards as being tossed cards and essentially they are helping you to reach deep so, als it helps you to get to your champion faster.
3. Now the biggest point about those cards.. is that they are too efficient.. and grant card advantage for low costs and on top of that there's the card reduction.. I can see the Black Market Merchant getting his discount totally removed, andPilfered Goods.. I think without the merchant discount.. is probably more manageable now I would suggest a mana increase but I think it will kill that deck entirely, and that's not how Riot did stuff so far.
4. playing around stuff that you wouldn't otherwise, there's 2 ways to go about it.. one is to reveal stolen cards which actually makes sense as they are originally yours, the other is to make the stolen cards fleeting which will reduce the power level of the card draw substantially.
TL;DR in conclusion those are the changes that I think are the options that are viable for the solution of the frustration:
1. Top-> bottom of the deck..
2. Steal-> copy.
3. Remove merchant discount.
4. Increase Pilfered Goods mana cost. (2->3)
5. Make stolen cards fleeting.
6. Reveal stolen cards.
I think the best for the game and mechanic would be changes: 1. cause Freljord, 3. to reduce power level, and 6. to increase counterplay.
Sorry about being bold.. but are you guys gonna complain about every viable card in the game? I can see 3 nerf threads in the home page.
Some cards need to be strong for the game to be fun you know?
I don't think the card is toxic by any means, there are worse offenders in the game.. like Unyielding Spirit, Will of Ionia and Atrocity, this card is an understated card that if left unchecked wins you the game if you can't deal with it you need to make your deck.. be able to deal with it, it's a 5 mana , 4 hp backline "engine" which brings almost no tempo gain since your opponent is not gonna defend or attack with it.
I think a card needs to be nerfed when it's just too good as stand alone/auto include(Will of Ionia, old Deny), doesn't have a way to interact with it or overcentralizing(like pre nerf Hecarim).
I don't think Neverglade Collector is in any of those categories.
There are tonnes of ways to deal with 4 hp backliners in every region and this one even comes kind of late as in turn 5.. if you lose to this card a lot maybe add more ways to deal with the card?
Because it's quite bad without building a deck around it it doesn't get that big otherwise. you can't really look at the card in a vacuum.
It's not that simple, here you are mentioning the most toxic card in the game currently, Will of Ionia, because of this card cards that cost 5 or more rarely ever see any play because you will just get a massive tempo loss for playing those cards.
I think there needs to be some change to atrocity and will if anything I will be surprised if the they who endure itself gets changed.
Anyway we *will* see tomorrow what they are planning (unless they moved patch notes day to Tuesday and I forgot..)
Think that card won't be touched.. removing overwhelm will just make it easy to chump block, and giving it fearsome is just an "easy" solution, freljord has a lot to do with overwhelm it's a theme the region have, giving it fearsome which is more of a SI/Noxus mechanic feels probably bad.. but if they were to nerf the card I could totally see it being the case.
I think libram paladin would have much worse wr without the 2 buffs it got.. It's actually decent on ladder rn.. So it shows on this brawl.
I will stress again how annoying it is that they did this brawl NOW and not 2 months ago..
It could be the BEST brawl.. if they did it.. you know.. on the first week or before release at least that way you get a geniune first experience of full decks before you go to craft stuff..
or maybe bring back whizbang? I never played that card but I really think they should incorporate either whizbang itself or a whizbang mechanic as a permanent feature I don't see why they let him rotate.. people really liked playing that card..