Honestly, I think a simple +1/+1 to Taric's body stats would do a world of good, but I wouldn't mind seeing a little more spice in his level-one support ability. SpellShield this round instead of Tough? SpellShield this round AND Tough? The level-two version is perfect as is. Sojourner is already crazy good, but I think Tyari the Traveler could use a little help, maybe create a Gem when it supports?
As for Targon spells, maybe dropping the mana cost of Blessing of Targon to 4? Dropping the mana cost of Gem to 0, or leaving the mana cost alone but making it grant +1/+1 instead of healing?
For Petty Officer, they seem to be pushing a more Bilgewater-heavy aggro archetype these days, so maybe they want to restrict the summon to Bilgewater. Or just make it kegs only -- I'd be fine with that. I don't like the way people have been using this card as a general-purpose board flooder.
There's no need to insult a subset of a playerbase just because they like a particular card.
How is that an insult? Do you even know what it means? "Timmy" is just a slang term (not pejorative) referring to players who like to play big units with powerful effects. No judgment attached.
Stop looking for ways to be offended, and you'll be a lot happier.
Regarding Gauntlet: I think you mean "new free players," not "casual players." I know it sounds like quibbling, but they are very different demographics.
The first week, Aurelion Sol's power level was magnified by the psychological effect of seeing a 10/10 SpellShielded Champion that often levels up immediately. But players have already gotten much better at dealing with him, so he's not quite as demoralizing as he initially was. This in turn makes it more likely people will actually try to fight instead of just giving up, which will result in even more games he does not win.
Eventually, once everyone is used to him and knows how to deal with him, I think he'll settle into a real (not just perceived) power level that's entirely suitable for a 10-mana Champion.
Just so I'm clear on what you mean - are you saying that you believe the other new archetypes are balanced well against ASol? Because I'm not really talking about him in a global sense, but scoped down to the latest expansion. Aurelion Sol Control is not entirely oppressive to the game and all other regions, but it is far and away the most powerful new archetype because the rest of the new archetypes are effectively unusually slow midrange decks. There may be metagames where some of those slower midrange archetypes can succeed, but I suspect any metagame that slow will inevitably devolve into an ASol Control meta.
I've been using Silverfuse's Freljord-SI every-troll deck, and it never loses against ASol. It also performs very well against older archetypes. So no, I cannot agree that the ASol archetype is the most powerful of the new set. It's just the most popular. Huge difference.
I also very strongly disagree that the meta is stale. Seeing older decks continuing to thrive (along with all the Timmy players loving ASol) may make it feel stale to some players, but that's a perception, not a fact.
It's not just Mogwai. Any deck showcased by a prominent streamer will become much more popular for a day or two. Mogwai is just the most popular streamer (with the possible exception of Swim), so the effect is magnified for his decks.
Neither SpellShield nor Hush appear in any of the top-tier decks right now, so it's pretty obvious that these effects are not a problem. Targon as a region is barely represented in the competitive meta right now, apart from Trundle-ASol.
In fact, these effects are absolutely necessary if you want Targon decks to have any chance at all against the heavy hitters of the previous set.
I have to disagree on Hush, sure it doesn't appear on any top-tier deck but that's mostly because there isn't any top tier Targon deck at moment, which pretty normal since we still don't have all the cards for this expansion yet.
Most Targon decks that I encounter in ranked do run the card and she pretty much the reason why I stopped using decks like The Rekindler/Anivia or Ezreal/Karma, spending 10 rounds setting up your board and leveling up your champions, only for your opponent to deny you your win condition with one 3 mana card that you can't respond to due to it's burst speed, is not healthy card design not to mention salt inducing.
Anyway this is just my opinion on the matter fell free to disagree.
So basically, your argument is "Hush is unhealthy because it's an indirect nerf to these archetypes that many people considered unhealthy."
The decks you mentioned were polarizing, uninteractive, and unfun to play against before Hush came along, so I don't think you'll find much sympathy on that front. In fact, Ezreal was on the watchlist for a possible nerf, and Karma was on a previous watchlist. If Hush keeps them in check, they won't have to be nerfed, so maybe you should be grateful Hush exists.
The first week, Aurelion Sol's power level was magnified by the psychological effect of seeing a 10/10 SpellShielded Champion that often levels up immediately. But players have already gotten much better at dealing with him, so he's not quite as demoralizing as he initially was. This in turn makes it more likely people will actually try to fight instead of just giving up, which will result in even more games he does not win.
Eventually, once everyone is used to him and knows how to deal with him, I think he'll settle into a real (not just perceived) power level that's entirely suitable for a 10-mana Champion.
Faces of the Old Ones works better than you'd think because of how ramp decks work. For a ramp deck, stall is almost as good as actual ramp, so if your opponent is spending time and resources taking out your Faces, it has done its job. Even if it does nothing but eat a Mystic Shot, that's 2 mana spent by your opponent and 2 damage that didn't go to your Nexus. Early in the game, that's all or most of an entire turn. Getting a ramp card out on turn 2 does make a difference.
I played thousands of hours playing Hearthstone, Gwent and Runeterra and have seen a ton of expansions being released. They all feature similar elements : wild Combos, increased RNG and cards above the power average of older ones.
Except they don't. Call of the Mountain cards are not more powerful than the ones from Rising Tides. All of the most powerful archetypes from Rising Tides still work, and most are better than any of the new archetypes. For the most part, these old archetypes use only one or two of the new cards since the update.
Here's what expansions for all card games do have in common: Bad players immediately complaining about cards that seem to them to be too strong when in reality there's nothing overpowered about them. Players who don't even understand the game accusing the developers of being bad at game design. And best of all, players with a favorite archetype that is slightly threatened by a new card who say this will make them quit the game.
Neither SpellShield nor Hush appear in any of the top-tier decks right now, so it's pretty obvious that these effects are not a problem. Targon as a region is barely represented in the competitive meta right now, apart from Trundle-ASol.
In fact, these effects are absolutely necessary if you want Targon decks to have any chance at all against the heavy hitters of the previous set.
I might trade a Sunburst for a Remembrance, which can be strong when several of your early-game units die at the same time. That tends to happen to me quite often when I play Daybreak builds. (It's also good Ruination insurance.)
GrappLr posted a weirdly self-contradictory YouTube rant today that, to me, summarizes a lot of grumblings about the expansion I've noticed from certain streamers. His two main points were:
None of the top-tier decks use Targon. In fact, they are all archetypes that existed before Call of the Mountain.
Hush is a "fun police" card that stifles creativity.
Do you see the contradiction? If none of the best decks are in Targon, they are not running Hush. Therefore, Hush cannot be a big enough presence in competitive play to keep a significant number of new decks from succeeding.
Of course, I must also point out that most of the top decks on the meta stats list have pretty low play rates. In fact, you don't see a play rate above 10% until you get down to ... wait for it ... Trundle + ASol. That's right, an all-new Call of the Mountain archetype. A meta with a lot of low play rates means greater diversity and excellent balance. When more people are choosing to play a new deck because it's fun, even though it doesn't perform quite as well as a lot of the older ones, that is a very good thing. (Another point -- I don't believe mobalytics tier lists are the most accurate representation of the actual meta. They get results from a fairly thin slice of the overall LoR user base, and I'm not at all convinced that the sample size is sufficient.)
GrappLr is upset because -- and he states this explicitly -- there's not enough power creep. He says he wants the first few weeks of a new expansion to be full of people saying, "OMG all these new cards need to be nerfed." Words cannot express how strongly I disagree with that sentiment. I say the fact that the new cards do NOT need a nerf is a sign that Riot did an amazing job with the balance. On the contrary, this is a great opportunity for Riot to appreciate how badly some of the old archetypes need to be taken down a notch.
So I just wanted to take a moment to congratulate Riot on a job well done, and I hope they don't take this negativity to heart. Keep up the good work, and I'm looking forward to those nerfs of last season's cards.
All I can say is, I had a 7-win expedition over the weekend using Demacia and Bilgewater. I lost to a Targon deck exactly once, and beat several others.
Did I win because they invoked garbage every time? No, because as I mentioned, it is nearly impossible to invoke garbage, ever. I won because I took advantage of the fact that every Celestial card is slow, and I played in such a way that they didn't get a chance to blow me out with slow spells.
If your country can't get three people to Master rank by Oct. 12, maybe it's time for your country to rethink its priorities.
I'd almost be tempted to drop a Will of Ionia from Jinni's list for an actual Mushroom Cloud. Almost.
Honestly, I think a simple +1/+1 to Taric's body stats would do a world of good, but I wouldn't mind seeing a little more spice in his level-one support ability. SpellShield this round instead of Tough? SpellShield this round AND Tough? The level-two version is perfect as is. Sojourner is already crazy good, but I think Tyari the Traveler could use a little help, maybe create a Gem when it supports?
As for Targon spells, maybe dropping the mana cost of Blessing of Targon to 4? Dropping the mana cost of Gem to 0, or leaving the mana cost alone but making it grant +1/+1 instead of healing?
For Petty Officer, they seem to be pushing a more Bilgewater-heavy aggro archetype these days, so maybe they want to restrict the summon to Bilgewater. Or just make it kegs only -- I'd be fine with that. I don't like the way people have been using this card as a general-purpose board flooder.
No mention of Silverfuse's Troll-play deck? Harrumph. That deck is great.
How is that an insult? Do you even know what it means? "Timmy" is just a slang term (not pejorative) referring to players who like to play big units with powerful effects. No judgment attached.
Stop looking for ways to be offended, and you'll be a lot happier.
Regarding Gauntlet: I think you mean "new free players," not "casual players." I know it sounds like quibbling, but they are very different demographics.
I've been using Silverfuse's Freljord-SI every-troll deck, and it never loses against ASol. It also performs very well against older archetypes. So no, I cannot agree that the ASol archetype is the most powerful of the new set. It's just the most popular. Huge difference.
I also very strongly disagree that the meta is stale. Seeing older decks continuing to thrive (along with all the Timmy players loving ASol) may make it feel stale to some players, but that's a perception, not a fact.
It's not just Mogwai. Any deck showcased by a prominent streamer will become much more popular for a day or two. Mogwai is just the most popular streamer (with the possible exception of Swim), so the effect is magnified for his decks.
So basically, your argument is "Hush is unhealthy because it's an indirect nerf to these archetypes that many people considered unhealthy."
The decks you mentioned were polarizing, uninteractive, and unfun to play against before Hush came along, so I don't think you'll find much sympathy on that front. In fact, Ezreal was on the watchlist for a possible nerf, and Karma was on a previous watchlist. If Hush keeps them in check, they won't have to be nerfed, so maybe you should be grateful Hush exists.
The first week, Aurelion Sol's power level was magnified by the psychological effect of seeing a 10/10 SpellShielded Champion that often levels up immediately. But players have already gotten much better at dealing with him, so he's not quite as demoralizing as he initially was. This in turn makes it more likely people will actually try to fight instead of just giving up, which will result in even more games he does not win.
Eventually, once everyone is used to him and knows how to deal with him, I think he'll settle into a real (not just perceived) power level that's entirely suitable for a 10-mana Champion.
Faces of the Old Ones works better than you'd think because of how ramp decks work. For a ramp deck, stall is almost as good as actual ramp, so if your opponent is spending time and resources taking out your Faces, it has done its job. Even if it does nothing but eat a Mystic Shot, that's 2 mana spent by your opponent and 2 damage that didn't go to your Nexus. Early in the game, that's all or most of an entire turn. Getting a ramp card out on turn 2 does make a difference.
Except they don't. Call of the Mountain cards are not more powerful than the ones from Rising Tides. All of the most powerful archetypes from Rising Tides still work, and most are better than any of the new archetypes. For the most part, these old archetypes use only one or two of the new cards since the update.
Here's what expansions for all card games do have in common: Bad players immediately complaining about cards that seem to them to be too strong when in reality there's nothing overpowered about them. Players who don't even understand the game accusing the developers of being bad at game design. And best of all, players with a favorite archetype that is slightly threatened by a new card who say this will make them quit the game.
The subset is perfect with one spell and one unit of each mana cost. Why would anyone want to mess with that?
Neither SpellShield nor Hush appear in any of the top-tier decks right now, so it's pretty obvious that these effects are not a problem. Targon as a region is barely represented in the competitive meta right now, apart from Trundle-ASol.
In fact, these effects are absolutely necessary if you want Targon decks to have any chance at all against the heavy hitters of the previous set.
I might trade a Sunburst for a Remembrance, which can be strong when several of your early-game units die at the same time. That tends to happen to me quite often when I play Daybreak builds. (It's also good Ruination insurance.)
GrappLr posted a weirdly self-contradictory YouTube rant today that, to me, summarizes a lot of grumblings about the expansion I've noticed from certain streamers. His two main points were:
Do you see the contradiction? If none of the best decks are in Targon, they are not running Hush. Therefore, Hush cannot be a big enough presence in competitive play to keep a significant number of new decks from succeeding.
Of course, I must also point out that most of the top decks on the meta stats list have pretty low play rates. In fact, you don't see a play rate above 10% until you get down to ... wait for it ... Trundle + ASol. That's right, an all-new Call of the Mountain archetype. A meta with a lot of low play rates means greater diversity and excellent balance. When more people are choosing to play a new deck because it's fun, even though it doesn't perform quite as well as a lot of the older ones, that is a very good thing. (Another point -- I don't believe mobalytics tier lists are the most accurate representation of the actual meta. They get results from a fairly thin slice of the overall LoR user base, and I'm not at all convinced that the sample size is sufficient.)
GrappLr is upset because -- and he states this explicitly -- there's not enough power creep. He says he wants the first few weeks of a new expansion to be full of people saying, "OMG all these new cards need to be nerfed." Words cannot express how strongly I disagree with that sentiment. I say the fact that the new cards do NOT need a nerf is a sign that Riot did an amazing job with the balance. On the contrary, this is a great opportunity for Riot to appreciate how badly some of the old archetypes need to be taken down a notch.
So I just wanted to take a moment to congratulate Riot on a job well done, and I hope they don't take this negativity to heart. Keep up the good work, and I'm looking forward to those nerfs of last season's cards.
All I can say is, I had a 7-win expedition over the weekend using Demacia and Bilgewater. I lost to a Targon deck exactly once, and beat several others.
Did I win because they invoked garbage every time? No, because as I mentioned, it is nearly impossible to invoke garbage, ever. I won because I took advantage of the fact that every Celestial card is slow, and I played in such a way that they didn't get a chance to blow me out with slow spells.
Agree 100%. I tried the deck a few times, and I always felt like Hawk was the most pointless card.
I, too, tried to make Zed work with Lulu, but I soon learned that no matter how you build it, there are better Champions for this list than Zed.
As Sanns hinted, since this list in particular is so Ionia-heavy, you may even want to pick a different second region to find someone better.
You don't counter a region; you counter an archetype.
Targon in particular supports several very different archetypes that are countered by very different strategies and lists.
I would recommend picking one archetype and starting a new thread.