If they made it so that each obelisk deals X damage (< 5) to the whole enemy side, it could have become a fancy tool for both Druid and Rogue to develop a Midrange/Control archetype, based on the generation of extra copies, an ability that only those two classes excel at.
Basically a mix between Highkeeper Ra and Desert Obelisk could have been a very intriguing design imo, with no risk to become broken, as long as the damage output was properly tuned down.
As it is, both are basically suicidal memes, hard to see even in Casual.
I love what Kibler proposed for Dr. Boom, Mad Genius - Change Battlecry to: "Battlecry: Mechs in your hand and deck gain Rush" and remove +7 Armor Hero power.
That way he still will be 7 mana 7/7. But changing into it will makes you more vulnerable (no more armour gain) and only Mechs you actually have in deck will have rush. That way all those discovered ones will not have Rush and would be much less problem. To benefit from this Battlecry you would have to actually put Mechs into deck.
Luna played on 4 with coin is absurd. And 4 Mana Conjurer's Calling is much less oppressive (harder to play twinspell, no chance to be generated from Magic Trick.
The change about Rush is smart indeed, it doesn't remove reactive power entirely, it just diminishes it. However, I'm not sure they are going to remove the armor hero power. I'm not even sure it will be necessary, after basically halving the Rush power of the card.
Either way i doubt they will touch Luna's Pocket Galaxy after recently buffing it. Also, however powerful one mana buff is, you can only lose against it if you do not put enough pressure to the Mage. With Conjuring nerfed, the mage will have much less swing power, and that should be enough to keep Mage in check, within the meta, despite Galaxy staying a strong highroll card.
The move would provide more room for other Control decks to emerge on par with Warrior, Mage could still play the anti-Control role, while being worse at highrolling against faster decks.
Nobody loses too much, but the meta would be slightly less polarised.
As a Wild player, I would also call for a nerf to Ancient Mysteries and Totemic Surge (notice Even Shaman is my main climbing deck). By (1) mana each. They'd still be very powerful in Standard, provided enough Secret/Totem support, while not being insane in Wild.
P.S: I'm sure there is an archetype named "Minion Mage" which was started with Book of Specters. Or, do I have my facts wrong?
I'm not sure it took shape as a defined archetype. I guess it could be compressed either into Zoomage or Handmage (not sure if any of these types are already an option tho). "Minion Mage" sounds like a meaningless label, imo.
There would be more cards I'd like to try, like Anka, the Buried, or even just Zul'jin or Kazakus (for Warlock), but then I should also craft many more expensive cards, and I can't really afford that (if I want to save something), nor am I sure the move would turn into Wild-viable archetypes, and/or that they would fit my typical playstyle.
I'm not sure i got your point, but if more variety is enforced in Zephrys the Great, it can only be for the good, as long as what is offered is optimal:
If you need an aoe, and he provides the best one one for the situation, you don't really care of the other options.
In particular, you don't care if other options are different AoE, EXCEPT possibly for the AoE tech option, ie Mass Dispel.
Maybe he could still whiff, coding for optimality is no easy task, but certainly options that are just redundant with each other are bad: when that happens, it's like he gives you no choice at all.
PS: i am not suggesting he should always offer 3 different types of cards. I'm suggesting he should NEVER offer 3 redundant cards (ie cards that serve the same purpose in the same way).
I love the idea of trying a standard rogue highlander and bouncing zephrys etc but don't have the cards yet to try it myself. And as ftp it would be nice to know if it's viable before spending my precious dust.
Have you tried an equivalent standard version??
The efficient bounce options in Standard are reduced to Shadowstep and Waggle Pick. You can use brewmasters, but they are a Tempo loss.
If you try Standard, i would suggest going straightforward for a faster deck, including stuff like Argent Commander and other Tempo cards, without caring too much of bouncing, if not occasionally.
All in all, i am not sure Standard Rogue has enough tools to make this viable, unlike eg Hunter.
- Secrets are an issue. But i think there is no good solution either. He can‘t possibly assume the secret, hence specific answers won‘t be shown. He could give the SI7 infiltrator more often as an option, especially against mage. I‘m saying that without knowing the probability with 4 mana left. It‘s difficult to draw the line, hungry crab for instance is offered to frequently imo. In those cases, it seems stupid that he offers 3x damage and not more variety. (Probably not that easy to code)
- He doesn’t realize the importance of specific minions. Stuff like Deathlord has theoreticly a positive effect for you and Zephrys won‘t morph it.
- Early game boards in general confuse him. I guess the options are simply not polarizing enough. It‘s probably on the player to polarize towards an obvions answer.
- When looking for a card to play next turn, make sure you have no mana left when you play Zephrys. (I wonder if he ever offers Mind control). Ysera is a common option here btw. Pyro if your opponent is below 10 health. I don‘t know if he considers warrior or priest heropowers, probably not
- When planing lethal, it‘s crutial to play out all the other required cards first.
This is good advice on player side.
On devs side tho, there is more that could be said: many whiffs could be solved if more VARIETY was enforced in the code that looks for immediate answers.
If one of the options, just one, is a tech (including silence when strong effects are on the board), even during lethal, it's up to the player to choose that tech, instead of sheer damage/removal.
Maybe even the tech option is not enough, sure, that's life, but at least one is given their best chances.
Zephrys the Great should NEVER offer 3 options that are largely REDUNDANT with each other, especially when used to fish for immediate solutions, including lethal.
That would be enough to make him more consistent to expectations, without any risk of turning him into a i-win button.
Maybe what we are seeing is purposeful dialing back of how "perfect" Zephyrs is so that it can remain a fun and helpful card to play but doesn't feel unfair on the other side. Generally speaking even super powerful legendaries require some build around or thought into how to use them to maximize their effectiveness. Maybe they don't want Zephyrs to give options that are TOO optimal so that he doesn't become an automatic win card.
I don't know if this is the case but it seems like it could be possible.
He's limited within Basic and Classic sets. He's already not perfect, in the solutions he has available.
But at least he should be optimal with what he has, given his public perspective: i do not expect he never fails, but he should always offer what i expect to find, in one of the 3 options. AT LEAST in the reactive scenario where he's played for immediate answer.
He can never be unfair, because one has to cripple themselves to Singleton deck before being able to play him. And that's a huge price already that cannot afford whiffs like those we are gathering here.
Ok. Someone explain this scenario to me! I'm playing Highlander hunter. I set up a lethal situation by putting a couple of minions on board, Kill Command in hand, and a hero power for some overkill. I press End Turn button. My opponent intuitively understands the set up and throws down Khartut Defender and does some other irrelevent action before ending his turn. Its my turn now I get myself down to 6 mana then I play the 2 mana Zephyrs knowing full well that it should offer me a 4 mana Polymorph! Zephyrs offers me Hex instead! I now don't have lethal! I won the game a few turns later but WTF Zephyrs! Hex is almost never a better option than Polymorph.
This is another interesting scenario.
Zephrys the Great was good enough to understand you needed a transform effect, yet he failed at providing the correct one.
People may argue he doesn't know you were holding lethal in hand, but then, as you said, Hex is almost always worse than Polymorph IN GENERAL, besides the lethal, and Zephrys should know better.
Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.
I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.
He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?
And i played him twice.
This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?
Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)
No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.
I have played zephrys on several occasions and he offered me a SI:7 Infiltrator, so Zephrys can see secrets, and he can offer you secret removal.
Well, then it is a possibility and not a guaranteed outcome, where the latter is a known fact. If we can get info like this in here, im all for it ;-)
The secretly subtle point of this thread is to gather enough data to prompt an improvement of his code. 😎
Indeed, i also thought about Wild mode being a counter-variable.
Zephrys may have no knowledge of Wild, hence why he does not even think that a tech at that point is a useful option.
Yet offering 3 redundant options is clearly a bad execution.
EDIT: Counterspell is Standard and would have countered ALL the options he offered me. He should definitely be improved as to the diversity of options he can offer.
Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.
I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.
He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?
And i played him twice.
This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?
Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)
No, he didnt fail. He is simply not coded to provide a secret removal option consistently (or at all?). He sees secrets, but not what kind of secrets, even if you check for them, he will not remember what secrets were eliminated by your actions. The mistake is you thinking he should offer secret removal options, but that is not how he works in regard to secrets specifically, simple as that.
That is my point: his code is not perfect.
He does generally offer tech cards, but in this case he offered only redundant lethal options.
That is not the optimal choice he is meant to offer.
A whiff is a whiff. The fact the code whiffs is exactly the point of this thread.
Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.
I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.
He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?
And i played him twice.
This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?
Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)
If you has played eviscerate first then he would have seen the lethal and given you SI:7, or some other from of lethal.
I would have triggered the ice block. ;)
Either way, post your whiffs!
This thread is not about discussing my case, which WAS a whiff no matter what! He's meant to offer the perfect card, and a choice. It's pointless to offer 3 redundant damage cards and no tech. In 6 cards (played him twice).
Because he doesnt operate with information in your hand. He didnt know you had Eviscerate. He only operates with public information, thus information that can be also known to your opponent.
The fact the opponent had 2 secrets was public.
Receiving no tech in 6 cards is a whiff, even if he didn't know i had lethal.
Welcome to this originally mildly salty thread, turned into a productive one!
I thought it was pretty fun to mention here all the obvious whiffs of Zephrys the Great, specifing the game context as precisely as possible.
REMINDER: zephrys the great calculates solutions based exclusively on PUBLIC elements. He does not know the identity of your cards or secrets, nor those of the opponent, but he can see that they are there and their number, plus health, weapons, board.
Let's gather enough data to improve his code!
Here i start:
(10) mana as Valeera the Hollow, with Eviscerate at hand, against Wild Secret Mage, with 2 secrets up (including ice block) and 1hp left:
i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.
I have no list at hand, but I would suggest you to build cheap decks around the Quests you own, since they are good enough. Their requirement can generally be fulfilled with efficient commons and rares. And they are fun (completing a quest could be a decent trade-off for losing a game).
Alternatively, you could build cheap mech decks (eg Hunter, Paladin), Zoolock (with lackeys and the new self-damage cards), Token Druid. Murloc Shaman too, but only if you have both Murloc Warleaders.
All these decks can variably benefit from your SN1P-SN4P, and maybe Zilliax too.
If you do not have enough cards for any of the suggested archetypes, you can always build a partial deck with what you have, and then see what the auto-complete function does: sometimes it's good enough to play it.
If they made it so that each obelisk deals X damage (< 5) to the whole enemy side, it could have become a fancy tool for both Druid and Rogue to develop a Midrange/Control archetype, based on the generation of extra copies, an ability that only those two classes excel at.
Basically a mix between Highkeeper Ra and Desert Obelisk could have been a very intriguing design imo, with no risk to become broken, as long as the damage output was properly tuned down.
As it is, both are basically suicidal memes, hard to see even in Casual.
The adventure will be released in September, about 1 month from expansion day, if i remember well.
The change about Rush is smart indeed, it doesn't remove reactive power entirely, it just diminishes it. However, I'm not sure they are going to remove the armor hero power. I'm not even sure it will be necessary, after basically halving the Rush power of the card.
Either way i doubt they will touch Luna's Pocket Galaxy after recently buffing it. Also, however powerful one mana buff is, you can only lose against it if you do not put enough pressure to the Mage. With Conjuring nerfed, the mage will have much less swing power, and that should be enough to keep Mage in check, within the meta, despite Galaxy staying a strong highroll card.
If they find a smart way to nerf Dr. Boom, Mad Genius, without killing the card, they can also nerf Conjurer's Calling.
The move would provide more room for other Control decks to emerge on par with Warrior, Mage could still play the anti-Control role, while being worse at highrolling against faster decks.
Nobody loses too much, but the meta would be slightly less polarised.
As a Wild player, I would also call for a nerf to Ancient Mysteries and Totemic Surge (notice Even Shaman is my main climbing deck). By (1) mana each. They'd still be very powerful in Standard, provided enough Secret/Totem support, while not being insane in Wild.
PS: and Barnes to (6) ofc, how could i forget...
I'm not sure it took shape as a defined archetype. I guess it could be compressed either into Zoomage or Handmage (not sure if any of these types are already an option tho). "Minion Mage" sounds like a meaningless label, imo.
Well, after dropping Zephrys the Great and crafting Bazaar Burglary, I guess my expenses are mostly over already.
There would be more cards I'd like to try, like Anka, the Buried, or even just Zul'jin or Kazakus (for Warlock), but then I should also craft many more expensive cards, and I can't really afford that (if I want to save something), nor am I sure the move would turn into Wild-viable archetypes, and/or that they would fit my typical playstyle.
I'm not sure i got your point, but if more variety is enforced in Zephrys the Great, it can only be for the good, as long as what is offered is optimal:
If you need an aoe, and he provides the best one one for the situation, you don't really care of the other options.
In particular, you don't care if other options are different AoE, EXCEPT possibly for the AoE tech option, ie Mass Dispel.
Maybe he could still whiff, coding for optimality is no easy task, but certainly options that are just redundant with each other are bad: when that happens, it's like he gives you no choice at all.
PS: i am not suggesting he should always offer 3 different types of cards. I'm suggesting he should NEVER offer 3 redundant cards (ie cards that serve the same purpose in the same way).
The efficient bounce options in Standard are reduced to Shadowstep and Waggle Pick. You can use brewmasters, but they are a Tempo loss.
If you try Standard, i would suggest going straightforward for a faster deck, including stuff like Argent Commander and other Tempo cards, without caring too much of bouncing, if not occasionally.
All in all, i am not sure Standard Rogue has enough tools to make this viable, unlike eg Hunter.
This is good advice on player side.
On devs side tho, there is more that could be said: many whiffs could be solved if more VARIETY was enforced in the code that looks for immediate answers.
If one of the options, just one, is a tech (including silence when strong effects are on the board), even during lethal, it's up to the player to choose that tech, instead of sheer damage/removal.
Maybe even the tech option is not enough, sure, that's life, but at least one is given their best chances.
Zephrys the Great should NEVER offer 3 options that are largely REDUNDANT with each other, especially when used to fish for immediate solutions, including lethal.
That would be enough to make him more consistent to expectations, without any risk of turning him into a i-win button.
He's limited within Basic and Classic sets. He's already not perfect, in the solutions he has available.
But at least he should be optimal with what he has, given his public perspective: i do not expect he never fails, but he should always offer what i expect to find, in one of the 3 options. AT LEAST in the reactive scenario where he's played for immediate answer.
He can never be unfair, because one has to cripple themselves to Singleton deck before being able to play him. And that's a huge price already that cannot afford whiffs like those we are gathering here.
This is another interesting scenario.
Zephrys the Great was good enough to understand you needed a transform effect, yet he failed at providing the correct one.
People may argue he doesn't know you were holding lethal in hand, but then, as you said, Hex is almost always worse than Polymorph IN GENERAL, besides the lethal, and Zephrys should know better.
The secretly subtle point of this thread is to gather enough data to prompt an improvement of his code. 😎
Indeed, i also thought about Wild mode being a counter-variable.
Zephrys may have no knowledge of Wild, hence why he does not even think that a tech at that point is a useful option.
Yet offering 3 redundant options is clearly a bad execution.
EDIT: Counterspell is Standard and would have countered ALL the options he offered me. He should definitely be improved as to the diversity of options he can offer.
That is my point: his code is not perfect.
He does generally offer tech cards, but in this case he offered only redundant lethal options.
That is not the optimal choice he is meant to offer.
A whiff is a whiff. The fact the code whiffs is exactly the point of this thread.
Guys, can you please assume i am not a complete n00b? Thank you.
I know how zephrys works. Yet his algorhythm is not as perfect as it should be.
He can't NOT give a tech option against 2 secrets. Giving Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe is 3 redundant options. How's that perfect?
And i played him twice.
This WAS a whiff, period. This is a "mildly salty thread" but I'm not even really salty, he failed, not me. And it was a silly Casual game, why should i care?
Now, can we please go on with the purpose of the thread? :)
I would have triggered the ice block. ;)
Either way, post your whiffs!
This thread is not about discussing my case, which WAS a whiff no matter what! He's meant to offer the perfect card, and a choice. It's pointless to offer 3 redundant damage cards and no tech. In 6 cards (played him twice).
The fact the opponent had 2 secrets was public.
Receiving no tech in 6 cards is a whiff, even if he didn't know i had lethal.
Welcome to this originally mildly salty thread, turned into a productive one!
I thought it was pretty fun to mention here all the obvious whiffs of Zephrys the Great, specifing the game context as precisely as possible.
REMINDER: zephrys the great calculates solutions based exclusively on PUBLIC elements. He does not know the identity of your cards or secrets, nor those of the opponent, but he can see that they are there and their number, plus health, weapons, board.
Let's gather enough data to improve his code!
Here i start:
(10) mana as Valeera the Hollow, with Eviscerate at hand, against Wild Secret Mage, with 2 secrets up (including ice block) and 1hp left:
i play Zephrys TWICE in the same turn, and in neither case did he offer me the SI:7 Infiltrator or Flare that could give me lethal.
Only 3 redundant options: Eviscerate, Fireball, Swipe. Twice.
I have no list at hand, but I would suggest you to build cheap decks around the Quests you own, since they are good enough. Their requirement can generally be fulfilled with efficient commons and rares. And they are fun (completing a quest could be a decent trade-off for losing a game).
Alternatively, you could build cheap mech decks (eg Hunter, Paladin), Zoolock (with lackeys and the new self-damage cards), Token Druid. Murloc Shaman too, but only if you have both Murloc Warleaders.
All these decks can variably benefit from your SN1P-SN4P, and maybe Zilliax too.
If you do not have enough cards for any of the suggested archetypes, you can always build a partial deck with what you have, and then see what the auto-complete function does: sometimes it's good enough to play it.
I'm seriously having a blast with Highlander Rogue + DK Valeera now: it feels DK Valeera was made for this.
Granted, been playing in Casual only, but beating a Renowock and an Odd QTaunt Warrior is not something a regular Rogue can easily do.
And i surely misplayed a lot more than i'm aware of too!
It's basically the first time i don't simply enjoy trying to refine a homebrew to viability, but also the refinement of my own skills at piloting it.
All this prompted by Zephrys the Great, and enhanced by Valeera the Hollow.
I'll never become a real Control player, but i'm enjoying this new level of complexity, beyond my usual Tempo style.
Still the chance of getting an Arcanite in opening hand instead of Defender is too bad for Quest purposes.
Your point about Patches is absolutely correct, but i dusted the card after the nerf, so... 😅