Hearthstone
About nerfs
Submitted 3 years, 11 months ago by
Ticomon
Hey guys, what do you think thats gonna get the nerf hammer?
I have 3.8k dust here to desenchant, but i'm wating for some nerfs and getting extra value
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Hey guys, what do you think thats gonna get the nerf hammer?
I have 3.8k dust here to desenchant, but i'm wating for some nerfs and getting extra value
I know what's on my wishlist, that and "libram" but they won't be nerfed.
Living like that.
something something Demon Hunter
If the current trend continues... Control warrior and soul demon hunter.
I wish Reno Priest. This deck is far too long on the top of the meta.
I see you!
Soul DH's reach probably needs to be cut back, but minor nerfs to single cards that give you attack, e.g. Soulshard Lapidary, might not do much since there are so many of them. I'm conscious that Twin Slice is in the DH Initiate set, which rotates out of Standard in April, so they might just wait until that fixes the reach issue automatically.
So better targets in DH are probably Bladed Lady or Blade Dance (the latter is also in the Initiate set, but hitting removal might have a bigger impact than attack buffs).
I think they should also undo the buff they gave to Aldor Attendant, putting it back to a 2 mana 2/3. We know Libram Pally works really well at this point, and First Day of School gives the class the 1-drop it lacked when the Attendant was buffed.
As a wild player Convincing Infiltrator and Raza the Chained are on top of my wishlist. Cannot understand why the unnerfed the latter. But of course this is just dreaming.
English is not my native language, so please excuse occasional mistakes
My Nerf Wishlist for standard and wild:
Standard: Soulshard Lapidary, Shardshatter Mystic, Convincing Infiltrator, Revolve, Renew, Voracious Reader, Raise Dead and Lightning Bloom. They probably won't nerf most of these, but despite that i really hope they will. I truly hope they either give Renew and Revolve the Evocation treatment, or nerf the 1 cost spells generators like Wand Thief. Oh and a Survival of the Fittest nerf would always be nice.
Wild: Raza the Chained and Convincing Infiltrator are super obvious, Voracious Reader yet again, and please blizzard get Lothraxion the Redeemed outta ODD Paladin. (And if those nerfs would happen, i hope they nerf Shadow Essence in order to prevent Big Priest overlords from returning after hyper-aggro takes those nerfs.) Oh and i hope they nerf some of the warlock discard cards, just so Discard stuff in Duels gets nerfed.
RNG is only fun as long as there is a 50/50 chance of getting something really good or trash level of bad. If RNG always results in something good, then it's not fun.
I don't understand why people are so focused on Raza the Chained when the problem has always been Shadowreaper Anduin. That hero power shouldn't deal two damage. Priest has access to way too many cheap cards and card generation and they brought a ton of spell discounting in this set. Anduin can do truckloads of damage all by itself thanks to its refreshing hero power. It has always been ridiculous. As far as i know, Raza wasn't an issue before Knights of the Frozen Throne. The hero card pushed it over the top. If you use Raza with any other hero power it's simply unimpressive. Gives you a lot of flexibility in your turns but doesn't break the game in any way. Anduin's hero power should deal one damage only. The deck would still work but Spawn of Shadows becomes a requirement. And Anduin itself won't be able to just kill you with hero power. They would need cards like Mind Blast to support it. That should put cut the power of the archetype without the need to obliterate Raza from existence.
For standard, it's Demon Hunter and burn in general that are an issue. Neutral healing has been at an all time low since Zilliax was rotated and that prevents classes without heavy healing from being able to play a longer game. They need to tone down sources of damage that come directly from hand. What was the point of rotating Leeroy Jenkins if they just keep printing more and more direct burn?
"True mastery takes dedication."
At present, I really don't see why any nerfs are needed. The most unfair card that is currently in top tier is Blade Dance, where it usually just clear boards while also allowing dhunters to crap on your face. Proper way to balance this would be having them to actually choose between hitting your face and destroying the board, or give it the Blade Flurry treatment and make it cost 3 or 4. Its just crazy how efficient blade dance is compared to most AoE effects.
Other than that, I'm not really seeing anything else really oppressive. Seems like outside of dhunters, nearly every deck on top that isn't a straight up combo deck actually needs a board to function (with the sole exception of bomb warrior, which for some reason still exists), and taunts aren't so easily brushed aside. Libram pally is pretty strong, but the only reason why its currently terrorizing the meta is because dhunters are everywhere and its natural predator, priest, is down on the dumps.
Well no. The problem is the cost of the hero power. Raza Priest was not a tier 1 deck for many months when Raza got nerfed.
In general 0 mana cost is usually broken (also see Alex, and Gala Rogue in standard)
No nerfs to shaman? I think its annoying
The entire Hunter set
This is probably a pipe dream, but I hope they change Il'gynoth. And I mean, change Il'gynoth, to like deal the damage to minions or something. Demon Hunter did not need a card that literally doubles their already insane burst damage.
At the very least, I expect Bladed Lady to get nerfed. That card is ridiculous.
A man is lying on the street, some punks chopped off his head
I'm the only one who stops to see if he's dead.
Hmm. Turns out he's dead.
Demon Hunter has to be nerfed. Soul DH is probably the perfect deck: it has incredible burst damage, great survivability with soul fragments and lifesteal weapons, and probably the best board clears and early-game removal in the meta right now (Blade Dance, Shardshatter Mystic, Soul Shear, Soulciologist Malicia). This deck has very few weaknesses, and it can even beat its weaknesses (Pure Paladin, Control Warrior) if it could get a well-timed Il'gynoth hit to the face.
My guess for the nerfs would be:
1) Blade Dance - maybe 3 mana?
2) Shardshatter Mystic - up to 4 mana
3) Soulshard Lapidary - deal 4 damage instead of 5
4) Bladed Lady - make it cost X less instead of making it cost (1)
some anti aggro nerf would be appreciated
I am 69 years old and still reach Legend
Hey, i really loved your PFP
I played a lot of Awesomenauts in 2013
I would really like to see nerfs to the power level of aggro to enable more control decks and old gods to be viable. Aggro DH is way stronger than it should be and face hunter isn't unbeatable but it's so annoying to face it constantly because it's still a good and simple deck. OTK control warrior has too many tools with incredible armor game, sticky rattlegores and otk, but I'm not sure what should be hit. Evolve shaman is a high-variance deck, but the evolve weapon draw became more consistent and it's sad this rng fiesta is the only option for shaman.
Aldrachi Warblades: lifesteal on equip turn only.
Voracious Reader: either (3) or 2hp
Risky Skipper: either (2) or 2hp
Palm Reading: discount 1 spell only
Lightning Bloom: refresh spent mana (no temporary Ramp)
Raza the Chained: HP costs (1)
The above would arguably fix both Wild and Standard for the time being.
Someone should try and sink the wild Pirate ship
“Legends never die,
They become a part of you.”
Why?
Because Wild is supposed to be Wild?
Especially if you do not play Wild, why do you even care?
Do you ever see Wild players suggesting to Standard that they should just tech up eg with Platebreaker and Acidic Swamp Ooze and stop asking for nerfs?
Or maybe we can agree that too much is too much in whatever mode?
Maybe I'm nuts but I could really go for some changes to Paladin, specifically Pure Paladin. I feel like it has way too much value generation for a deck that is very much NOT a control deck. It applies pressure the entire time and yet still seems to never run out of fuel.
If the cost of the hero power is truly the problem, tell me any priest hero power that would be broken costing 0 mana that isn't Shadowreaper Anduin's HP. Because as far as I can tell Raza was absolutely dead while nerfed.
I'd prefer they deal with Anduin (make it deal less damage, let it not target face; whatever) and allow raza to at least combine with something like galakrond.
Reno priest is far from unconterable. I've got a winrate about 70% with renolock against them.
There are so many ways it can be countered I don't know why everyone is still crying for nerfs all the time.
Not uncounterable has never been a reason to not nerf cards from a deck. If you run specific cards against it, yes, every deck is counterable.
Lightning bloom and voracious reader I can sort of understand, but nerf risky skipper, palm reading, and aldrachi warblades?
Man you really must hate those cards a great deal. Especially Palm Reading, of which in your proposed nerf might as well just erase it from existence.
Agreed. I can't believe they gave DH a cheaper duskbreaker with an easier condition to meet.
It's really is annoying how DH in general have access to way too many things. Soul DH is just not interactable for most of the game.
Huh? I'm saying Anduin hero power is fine as long as it doesn't cost 0 mana.
All I want from christmas is for Team 5 to revert the buff to Aldor Attendant. I really don't mind Pure Paladin as you can have tech cards like Bad Luck Albatross but I'm really getting over the infinite librams
TREMBLE before.... the most legendary dragon that ever existed!
Yeah Bad Luck Albatross should get a buff so it is again viable to play for something like Reno decks.
I see you!
Most of their tools are improvements on what other classes have.
Consume Magic - a better Silence, since it has the upside of drawing you a card
Shardshatter Mystic - on par with [Hearthstone Card (Dusk Breaker,) Not Found] one of the best cards ever printed
Priestess of Fury - pre-nerf version was arguably a better Ragnaros the Firelord because its damage is distributed, and it's cheaper
Aldrachi Warblades - honestly one of the best weapons in the game considering all the synergies it has with DH's attack-giving spells
Skull of Gul'dan - even at 6 mana, it's probably still in the top 3 most powerful cards in the game right now. It's the best drawing tool over anything the other classes have to offer.
I could go on. Demon Hunter as a class is just soooo busted, even after there have been 10+ nerfs to the class already since it entered the game.
Except that:
Consume Magic costs 1 more, and the card draw is conditional
Shardshatter Mystic requires you to draw and play another card beforehand which is much harder that just holding a dragon
Priestess of Fury unlike Ragnaros sucks at dealing with big minions
Re: Consume Magic, it's all about the upside. You'd be more comfortable putting it in your deck than Silence since the upside of drawing a card renders its higher cost negligible. If you made the argument that Consume Magic can only target enemy minions you'd probably have a case, but silencing your own minions isn't really part of the DH class's gameplan.
Re: Shardshatter Mystic, it's probably still a smidge worse than Duskbreaker, but it's really not that hard to activate it considering the cheaper Spirit Jailer and Soul Shear exist which curves right into Mystic. The only drawback is if you somehow don't draw any soul fragment-shuffling cards or if you run out of soul fragments in your deck (which only happens if you have really rotten luck or if you mulligan wrong), which poses almost (emphasis on "almost") the same problem as not having a dragon in hand for Duskbreaker.
Re: Priestess of Fury, well, Ragnaros the Firelord sucks at dealing with wide boards. The point is that pre-nerf Priestess was cheaper and could even be cheated out with Raging Felscreamer, and its potential to either clear your opponent's board or deal 6 damage to the face makes it more versatile. I think that makes Priestess better despite Ragnaros easily having a higher power level (8 damage is no joke).
I've come to terms that Blizzard hates nerfing hunter directly (for some reason), and that they would rather print overpowered cards for Demon Hunter, then scale them back, then print underwhelming cards.
All in all. I want them to start taking a more active approach in released cards, buff cards that aren't seeing play, nerf cards that are seeing too much play. Make ALL the cards fun and enjoyable (at least try to). I hate to jump on the "LoR is better than HS bandwagon" but while there are things I don't like about LoR, they aren't afraid to buff/nerf cards so that there's a wider variety of choices in meta decks. Hearthstone just seems to like to beat a dead horse with forced archetypes. I'd rather see a wider variety of tools released, and allow players to pick and choose creative decks. I'm honestly tired of expansion forced archetypes. Just make FUN, thematic, cards that players can use in interesting ways.
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Sorry no aldor shodul be left as it is palladin deserves actual suable own clas s1drops aswell in standard.
And instead of nerfing can aslo buff/unnerf the terrible class or ontop of nerfs.
Or for standard could for more aslo print better defensive cards and have class/classes basicly be auto loose to aggro casue classidenity or whatever.
Or have pretty much all the basic/classic anti aggro cards that are just so abd thay cant ever serve their purpose,.
Raza isnt the issue at all, never ever has been. the issue is a Anduin and imo aslo Reno + their isane removal/aoe package that makes them stay alive so ealsy with out of jail card(reno) and beat control ith combo.
NO. That card was stupid as hell at 3mana. ANd if anythign reno should just get nerfed itself Imo.
and albatros wasnt just good vs reno it was good vs basicly evry deck.
Or idea ive read few months ago, make it refresh on only minions or only spells but noth both for Anduin
Palm Reading is effectively a Ramp card in Priest. Add it to a class with Big archetype available and you're in for idiotic matches. And it's bound to grow worse in Wild (where it is already a staple for all Priest meta archetypes).
Aldrachi Warblades nerf is quite obvious tbh. Leeching Poison nerf already happened for similar reasons. You can't have durable lifesteal on highly buffable weapons. Especially in an already more than solid class. Even more so if you decide to design a card like Il'gynoth.
Risky Skipper is admittedly daring, but I really don't know what to touch in Warrior. Skipper is one of the great staples.
I only hate less than half of the cards I suggested for nerfs, but either way I do have fairly good reasons.
Discounting wild since devs apparently don't design standard cards for wild anyway.
Palm Reading has a really powerful effect, as 1 mana spells in standard for priest is really strong. But considering that the class is probably only second to warrior in floating mana, the best possible outcome is they get to play Soul Mirror 1 turn earlier than usual, or have a go with either Nazmani Bloodweaver or [Hearthstone Card (sethekk vielweaver) Not Found]. I woudn't consider any of it remotely OP since priest cards aren't aggressive.
aldrachi isn't the real culprit; its team5's apparent love life with dhunter card designs and Il'gynoth that's causing the real problems. On its own aldrachi is simply another way for dhunters to heal back up (why they are the only tempo class that can be both aggressive and defensive is beyond me) and after the nerf is one of the worst weapons available. Even if we're committed to nerfing it, putting it at 4 mana does the job better, or even better yet, just nerf Blade Dance, probably the most efficient removal available.
I wouldn't worry about warrior. Its only going well for them because its currently an aggressive meta. In most cases if you can continually put minions on board they just die on their own
I was reading through the comment session of a recent video of Zeddy where he talks about the cards that he believe should be nerfed and i saw a guy make a suggestion that will save both cards. He suggested that Raza's effect should be this instead: "Your first Hero Power this turn costs 0". I do believe that he misspelled the text and that he meant "Your first Hero Power each turn costs 0". This solves all the issues without killing either card. It weakens the OTK potential of the deck, it prevents infinite damage OTKs from randomly generated Coldarra Drakes, it keeps Raza's functionality for every other Hero Power and it could even prevent potential future abuse with other cards or Hero Powers through Auctionmaster Beardo. This seems to be the perfect fix for the whole problem. I still highly dislike Shadowreaper Anduin but both cards should be fine with this change.
"True mastery takes dedication."
I don't understand why the way to nerf Raza priest needs to be a discussion.
When Raza was nerfed the deck was fine. It was still more than serviceable. Only reason you didn't see it much was because it required people to actually think instead of just having the deck play itself like now.
Revert the raza revert and all should be fine.
Yes, Raza was okay nerfed but it was completly useless with a hero power other than Shadowreaper Anduin's. And I would love to be able and play raza priest with Galakrond, the Unspeakable HP or the Activate the Obelisk HP without it just being a worse version of Machine gun priest. Even Shadowform was completly eclipsed by Voidform and none of these would be broken at 0 mana.
Raza could be such a cool and fun card undeserving of any nerf if it wasn't for that damn hero card.
So, Soul DH is really really overpowered.
I played him as a priest, I was at 23 HP, two taunts and DH had no board no weapon.
And then he just killed me, with nothing I could do about it. For 9 mana, in standard, from 23 lives with no enemy board.
This really is not OK.
-=alfi=-
I actually agree.
But I wonder how long till they release a new flawed Hero Power... But yeah, if that was out of doubt, it's true that Raza per se is not an issue - repeatable Hero Power is.
True that they have insane survival package, but that's fairly normal for a Control deck.
Issue atm is that Reno Priest is at the same time a top tier Control AND Combo deck.
Since the Control part can't be easily nerfed, the Combo part must be heavily impaired.
(I'm assuming Il'gynoth was involved. If he wasn't, that just further motivates my final comment.)
Yeah, I was hammering out the Il'gynoth achievement yesterday with a bad deck (using lots of cards no one else uses), playing badly, and not even trying to win, but I still won most games out of nowhere because the whole set up is just too easy to pull together. I hadn't put Il'gynoth on my nerf list last time, but now I have actually used him it is clear he needs a serious mana increase.
You'll be pleased to hear I retired the deck asap and have no intention of ever touching it again.
What's really worrying is that I'm pretty sure Il'gynoth isn't even the most unfair thing in DH. I'm certainly sick of playing against the class and most of the time I don't even see the card.
Yup Anduin has always been the core issue. I think if even raza was guttd tomorow, anduin in future would just be issue again casue its a self repeatable Hero power which imo is always gonna cause issues in due time. While raza without anduin is farily unimpressive. like even guldan or jaraxxus who have the best hero powers in the game (per use atleast) would be 0issues with raza as well thyre a turn and in endgame saving 2mana is way less of a impact generly then in early or midgame.
Thats a good change aswell but id still prefer something to anduin if i had to choose, if not for now for the future.
I aslo dislike that only interaction shadowform and anduin have is making your hero power worse( 3dmg vs repeatable 2dmg).
Well either should have insane control and weaker combo or be stronger combo but be lot less vurnable and without stuff like scream (at 9mana it would still be betetr then plague of death) or reno being out of jail free card, zeph is aslo insane but it needs right board state and is more fine then reno but still something i aslo think is a bad idea for long run.
But if isnt gonna get nerfs and thats strentgh wild decks are alowed to have then imo they really should unnerf/buff alot so (more) other classes/decks can have more simelair level power and deck would stand out at less. As its like ok why is raza priest which is very much an insane deck allowed to stay but weaker decks had to be nerfed/changed.
But i do think you could relativly easly nerf the control package(not as easy combo part but still).
Like reno being 7mana for example. Physisc scream to 8/9 cause even at 9 would still be lot better then plague of death. Or mass hysteria to like 6 just some examples of their stronger survival cards that could be nerfed and that would hit bigpriest aswell which many would be happy with.
Aso for demon Hunter Nerfs/balance changes you could just touch Skuls of guldan. And make it 5mana again BUT make the outcast only reduce by 1
The big cost reduction of it keeps being and issue (atleast in standard)
Would make it a better stand alone draw when not outcasted and reduce the crazines what can happen with outcast is active massivly and would be big nerf to burst it can do without changing other cards. And would be win for blizz as less dust to refund aswlel!.
Yes, it was lifesteal blade, first and second slide, the +4 attack DF card, Illgynoth and Kay
-=alfi=-
Leaching poison got nerfed because blizzard hated control rogue with kingsbane except for their version of burgle rogue where you endlessly discover bullshit to win the game. Leaching poison got nerfed and next expansion they release spectral cutlass, which is complete hypocrisy.
And you know what happened with kingsbane after the nerf? it became even more degenerate aggro fodder. With pirates and weapon buffs and coldlights and you get what you deserve.
Living like that.
While the comparison with Spectral Cutlass is obvious, is isn't entirely fair because once you use weapon removal on the cutlass it is gone completely and the rogue has to start over again with a new one. So you can easily deal with it if you want to. That was not true with a lifesteal Kingsbane until DoD added Kobold Stickyfinger.
I don't see any hypocrisy in there, just a refinement of the original idea into one that can actually be countered.
Also, for the record, I don't think Blizzard 'hates' control rogue so much as the core class mechanics don't make any sense with the control archetype. Burgle rogue is not a control deck and never has been; it is a value-tempo deck that eats control for breakfast and only beats aggro by seizing board control early on and beating them up faster than they beat you up. OG Kingsbane rogue sticks out like a sore thumb as the only deck in rogue's history that can seriously be considered a control deck, because it reliably had both massive AoE and healing. I am a strong advocate of maintaining class identity so I just don't think rogue should have been allowed both of those things in a form that could not be countered, and that's coming from a rogue main!
---------------------------------------
Anyway, coming back to the original matter of whether Aldrachi Warblades need nerfing: I don't think they do. For one thing, DH is meant to have healing so @RavenSunHS's comparison to Leeching Poison isn't fair. The Warblades are also actually a kind of crappy weapon by themselves, so I think we should be targeting the cards that break them (I'm looking at you Il'gynoth). However, it is apparent they probably shouldn't be in the Basic set so we have to deal with ridiculous healing in DH until the end of days.
Drakkari Trickster was a perfectly fine counter to kingsbane rogue where they drew their entire deck to have just kingsbane at the end, and that came out in the same expansion. Not to mention when leeching poison got nerfed the meta was full of combo decks. Meaning endless sustain did not matter. Also, yeah weapon removal exists, guess what exists a second spectral cutlass which they all run.
Living like that.
The Trickster came out in Rastakhan's Rumble, the Cutlass is Witchwood, Kingsbane in K&C, and Leeching Poison in Frozen Throne. Not a single one of them was in the same expansion. Certainly the Trickster came out way after Leeching Poison was nerfed, so it never had anything to do with countering OG Kingsbane rogue. Perhaps you meant a different card?
K&C was not riddled with OTK decks, it had combo-control decks like CubeLock where endless sustain absolutely did matter. It meant rogue could punch through endless massive taunts, heal up for well over twice the damage taken, and eventually be left with full health, a 17 attack weapon and as much time as it took to just whack the opponent's face in. If the sustain didn't matter, the deck wouldn't have disappeared when Leeching Poison was made a 1-time heal.
Regarding the second Cutlass: a good use of weapon removal makes sure the rogue buffs the Cutlass first, so even if they have a second one it is still weaker than without weapon removal. Plus, you still have the option of running multiple weapon removal too, so it is still completely counterable. To be clear, I do dislike the design of the Cutlass, because like OG Kingsbane rogue it easily makes games unwinnable for the opponent if they don't run weapon removal and they aren't an OTK deck. Bazaar Burglary was a much better design trying to achieve a similar thing.
yes because 2 mana fiery war axe they hit you in the face with every turn after completing their quest on turn 2 is good game design....
Living like that.
Hit face? That's not how that deck is played at all. Besides, the fact it has never been a meta deck shows the effect is completely fair given the requirement of the quest.
It must be nice living in a world where every deck you play against isn't degenerate that plays shit just to play shit an hits you in the fact every single opportunity. I wish i lived there.
Living like that.
I'm sorry, what? You encounter burgle rogue every game and the people playing it are misplaying by punching your face instead of hitting minions most turns? I'd take that over Demon Hunter beating my face in every game. Seriously, that weapon should pretty much always be used as removal unless there are no minions to remove or the opponent is at low life already. I guess if they know you're an OTK deck they should ignore the board too.
I appreciate the whole burgle thing isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I really don't see where your grudge against Bazaar Burglary comes from.
How low rank are you where you think Rogue quest is actually good lol?