The Wildsteeds are good but they are not the reason hunter was strong. The bear is an Imprisoned Homunculus, and the Fox is worse than Pelican Diver. If I were to nerf the Wildsteeds I would have changed Wild Spirits because it is awakening them one turn earlier which makes them so strong.
I'd like Theotar, the Mad Duke to discard the two cards instead of swapping them. It would retain the disruption ability but no more being killed by your own card.
As for Harpoon Gun, anything that makes it a meme card. I dislike such high-roll cards. There is no counter-play. Just hope they don't have it on curve, and if they do, hope they don't have a 7-mana beast at the bottom of their deck.
Yeah, Throne of the Tides mini-set also felt a bit weak compared to last years'. I don't know if that's good or bad though. Last year had incredibly strong mini-sets.
Wildfire and Reckless Apprentice are both from Forged in the Barrens and Magister Dawngrasp was buffed in December but has only become a big problem since the latest expansion so there must be more to it. Mech Mage was the most popular mage deck for Voyage to the Sunken City and that didn't include Magister Dawngrasp. Big Spell Mage obviously couldn't run Wildfire either.
I think Murder at Castle Nathria gave mage a critical mass of stall cards, adding Solid Alibi and Nightcloak Sanctum to Varden Dawngrasp, Flurry, and Blizzard. I tried making a hero power mage deck many times and it was never this strong. It particularly struggled against decks with lots of damage from hand, such as Curse Warlock and Fel Demon Hunter, but Prince Renathal has pushed those decks out of the meta.
Theotar also provided some disruption against combo decks.
The first half of the explanation for Starfish applies to Theotar but the second half doesn't. I have been playing enrage warrior lately and Starfish ruins my board but Theotar is rarely a big problem. I am sure Starfish is also a problem for handbuff paladin, and probably mech paladin too. Some of the weaker classes were being hard hit by Starfish's ubiquity.
Quest-line priest needs to be removed. It if so infuriating to play against. I have been playing a mi'da priest deck, which I know is bad but can be fun. Matched up against a quest-line priest. I know I won't be able to kill them before they finish their quest so my only chance is to steal the quest reward with Theotar.
To that end, I play both copies of Identity Thief and manage to get an extra Theotar, which I needed when their Theotar stole my original (had 9 cards in hand and 2 copies of Theotar). I have drawn my entire deck before they finish their quest, and I am keeping a copy of Drown and one charge of my location in case Theotar misses.
They complete their quest and now have 7 cards in hand. I play Theotar and it misses. Okay, back-up plan. Drown Xyrella, use my location to draw Xyrella, play it, and silence their minions because they draw cards. I only need to avoid them drawing it at the start of their turn and I will win with my own shard next turn. They have 11 cards remaining in their deck, so I now have a 91% chance to win. They draw their shard and win.
From now on I am conceding on turn 1 against any quest-line deck because I am so sick of them all.
Having a card stolen from your hand and then used to kill you feels incredibly bad so I would be happy if Theotar was changed to discard the 2 cards instead of swapping them. It would weaken the card significantly and focus it purely on disruption.
Mutanus was effective disruption when a win condition needed multiple minions, such as Kazakusan or the Captain Galvangar otk. Even if Mutanus didn't eat the critical minion it could still delay them or reduce their maximum potential damage. This would affect deck-building and how people played games. Nobody is scared of Mutanus any more.
Specifically to dapperdog above: The problem of 'OP singular cards' has existed for a while, and before Murder at Castle Nathria games would be won and lost by when certain cards were drawn - eg Wildheart Guff.
Is Toxfin so bad that it will make murlocs busted? I found SI:Sefin annoying because it could make the whole board poisonous for little gold. Toxfin can only do one murloc at a time, so you need to find 6 Toxfins to make your board poisonous. That's quite an investment.
I always disliked playing against quest-lines (particularly hunter, mage, and priest) but Renathal has made it much worse. I think Renathal should not exist in standard alongside any form of quest deck, because playing against a quest deck often comes down to killing them asap and Renathal makes that significantly harder. However, the increased deck size and hence inconsistency in draws is almost completely negated by the quest starting in hand.
My impressions of the overall meta;
High-rolling has become more important, off-board damage is too high (Brann and/or Kaelthas are big problems there, as well as Macaw in shaman), there are a lot of freeze effects, and the disruption tools that are available (Mutanus and Theotar) have massive elements of luck to them and I am fed up of games being decided by luck. Sure , I can influence the luck but ultimately games are still decided by a roll of a die.
Does Fluffy Kael'thas count itself as the first minion? If so, then for 9-mana you can play Fluffy Kael'thas, Brann Bronzebeard, and any minion for nothing, which opens up all 8+ cost minions to abuse with Brann. Who wants double Jace Darkweaver? Or Kel'Thuzad, the Inevitable?
I am concerned by a lot of the developers comments though. For example, the comment about Harpoon Gun. They know it is a high-roll card and feels awful to play against but won't do anything about it because they fear hunter will become too weak. Having all classes be competitive is more important than how enjoyable the game is to play.
Maybe they are worried that peope who mainly play hunter will quit.
Sorry this reply is so late, I was away for a few days, but your post deserved an answer.
I follow you that Seek Guidance makes decks that are interesting to play but I find it appalling to play against. That is not to say I think it is too strong, but that it is unenjoyable to be matched up against.
I often feel like the only hope is that they do not curve out perfectly. Three times (that I remember) I have lost to a Purified Shard on turn 10 and it is frustrating and feels miserable. It - and Defend the Dwarven District - are matchups where I feel like my decisions do not matter. There is no interesting counterplay.
To take your example of Mutanus the Devourer: Against other decks there is a big question of when to play Mutanus, but that doesn't exist against quest-line priest. Wait for Xyrella, the Sanctified to be in hand and go. The game is decided by a 1 in whatever chance of eating Xyrella. I don't find that interesting.
So for me Seek Guidance sits in the same space as Tickatus as cards that are so frustrating to play against that they should never be more than a tiny percentage of ladder decks.
The Blackwater Behemoth change buffs questline priest and I think that questline belongs in a Hearthstone Hall of Fame for worst designed cards. If you are lucky enough to curve out perfectly we'll give you a 5-mana 7/7 with taunt which puts a spell into your deck that instantly wins the game, because who doesn't love instant win cards...
The Wildpaw Gnoll buff is scary. It can easily become oppressive because of Maestra of the Masquerade. I am also surprised they gave that many buffs to big beast hunter at the same time. I don't like them pushing mana cheating so hard.
I agree with these changes but I think that we would need an adjustment to Paladin also. Mech Paladin and Handbuff Paladin is highly efficient (stats from hsreplay Legend >1000) but get his ass kicked by DH. Removing that deck from the scene would mean that Paladin will become the king of the meta. It crushes every other deck in the meta (maybe excepting Boar priest, which is almost a 50% match)
There is still too much off-board damage in the game. I just lost 3 straight games and took a combined 8 damage from minions attacking me, and some of that came from Lady S'theno. I took over 100 damage from weapon attacks, spells, Pufferfist and Defias Cannoneer.
I think this card is partially overated, but still a decent card. You will usually get 4 mana back on it, which just makes this a 2-5 with semi-taunt for free. I worry that with mages strong draw engine it could be worse, but atleast Incanter's Flow will be gone to partially reduce mana cheat, though Siphon Mana and Shivering Sorceress will help with that.
There is also Murkwater Scribe and Hot Streak, which synergise very well with Spitelash Siren. I don't see the pay-off though. An OTK will be hard because of board space issues, and there is no Flamewaker style card that benefits from playing spells/nagas. Unless you want to wait until 9-mana to play Spitelash Siren then build back up to 9 for Haleh, Matron Protectorate, but that is very slow.
I find it worrying how many of these cards are not good enough to see play in standard in their unnerfed forms, eg Kayn Sunfury, Shattershard Mystic, Bloodboil Brute, ...
I think that says a lot about the power level of the previous year.
The problem with hunter is the mana cheating of Harpoon Gun, Azsharan Saber, Pet Collector, and Wing Commander Ichman. And Prince Renathal makes it easier for them to survive to their power turns. I am glad Harpoon Gun was weakened but I am surprised they didn't also nerf Pet Collector.
The Wildsteeds are good but they are not the reason hunter was strong. The bear is an Imprisoned Homunculus, and the Fox is worse than Pelican Diver. If I were to nerf the Wildsteeds I would have changed Wild Spirits because it is awakening them one turn earlier which makes them so strong.
I'd like Theotar, the Mad Duke to discard the two cards instead of swapping them. It would retain the disruption ability but no more being killed by your own card.
As for Harpoon Gun, anything that makes it a meme card. I dislike such high-roll cards. There is no counter-play. Just hope they don't have it on curve, and if they do, hope they don't have a 7-mana beast at the bottom of their deck.
Yeah, Throne of the Tides mini-set also felt a bit weak compared to last years'. I don't know if that's good or bad though. Last year had incredibly strong mini-sets.
Kazakusan had a massive impact. Both druid and priest had decks that rushed out Kazakusan.
Onyxia's Lair also gave us Scale of Onyxia - which is a crucial card for all ramp druid decks - and Drakefire Amulet. Most of the big spell mage core comes from mini sets - Grey Sage Parrot and Deepwater Evoker are from Deadmines. The Wailing Caverns included Wailing Vapor and Primal Dungeoneer which made Elemental Shaman a real deck.
My early impression is that Maw and Disorder is a lower impact mini-set than all 3 of last years' mini-sets.
Wildfire and Reckless Apprentice are both from Forged in the Barrens and Magister Dawngrasp was buffed in December but has only become a big problem since the latest expansion so there must be more to it. Mech Mage was the most popular mage deck for Voyage to the Sunken City and that didn't include Magister Dawngrasp. Big Spell Mage obviously couldn't run Wildfire either.
I think Murder at Castle Nathria gave mage a critical mass of stall cards, adding Solid Alibi and Nightcloak Sanctum to Varden Dawngrasp, Flurry, and Blizzard. I tried making a hero power mage deck many times and it was never this strong. It particularly struggled against decks with lots of damage from hand, such as Curse Warlock and Fel Demon Hunter, but Prince Renathal has pushed those decks out of the meta.
Theotar also provided some disruption against combo decks.
The first half of the explanation for Starfish applies to Theotar but the second half doesn't. I have been playing enrage warrior lately and Starfish ruins my board but Theotar is rarely a big problem. I am sure Starfish is also a problem for handbuff paladin, and probably mech paladin too. Some of the weaker classes were being hard hit by Starfish's ubiquity.
One card I never see mentioned is Varden Dawngrasp. The full board freeze is annoying and it is included in every mage deck.
Why Deathborne? From what I understand it is mostly included for the mirror match-up.
Quest-line priest needs to be removed. It if so infuriating to play against. I have been playing a mi'da priest deck, which I know is bad but can be fun. Matched up against a quest-line priest. I know I won't be able to kill them before they finish their quest so my only chance is to steal the quest reward with Theotar.
To that end, I play both copies of Identity Thief and manage to get an extra Theotar, which I needed when their Theotar stole my original (had 9 cards in hand and 2 copies of Theotar). I have drawn my entire deck before they finish their quest, and I am keeping a copy of Drown and one charge of my location in case Theotar misses.
They complete their quest and now have 7 cards in hand. I play Theotar and it misses. Okay, back-up plan. Drown Xyrella, use my location to draw Xyrella, play it, and silence their minions because they draw cards. I only need to avoid them drawing it at the start of their turn and I will win with my own shard next turn. They have 11 cards remaining in their deck, so I now have a 91% chance to win. They draw their shard and win.
From now on I am conceding on turn 1 against any quest-line deck because I am so sick of them all.
Having a card stolen from your hand and then used to kill you feels incredibly bad so I would be happy if Theotar was changed to discard the 2 cards instead of swapping them. It would weaken the card significantly and focus it purely on disruption.
Mutanus was effective disruption when a win condition needed multiple minions, such as Kazakusan or the Captain Galvangar otk. Even if Mutanus didn't eat the critical minion it could still delay them or reduce their maximum potential damage. This would affect deck-building and how people played games. Nobody is scared of Mutanus any more.
I think we need strong disruption to make games more interactive. Currently the meta is dominated by one-card win conditions, high rolls, and aggro druid. Mutanus does nothing against Balinda Stonehearth or Razorfen Beastmaster into Kryxis the Voracious. It is also useless against Magister Dawngrasp and Defend the Dwarven District.
Specifically to dapperdog above: The problem of 'OP singular cards' has existed for a while, and before Murder at Castle Nathria games would be won and lost by when certain cards were drawn - eg Wildheart Guff.
Is Toxfin so bad that it will make murlocs busted? I found SI:Sefin annoying because it could make the whole board poisonous for little gold. Toxfin can only do one murloc at a time, so you need to find 6 Toxfins to make your board poisonous. That's quite an investment.
Is anyone else finding this meta unenjoyable?
I always disliked playing against quest-lines (particularly hunter, mage, and priest) but Renathal has made it much worse. I think Renathal should not exist in standard alongside any form of quest deck, because playing against a quest deck often comes down to killing them asap and Renathal makes that significantly harder. However, the increased deck size and hence inconsistency in draws is almost completely negated by the quest starting in hand.
My impressions of the overall meta;
High-rolling has become more important, off-board damage is too high (Brann and/or Kaelthas are big problems there, as well as Macaw in shaman), there are a lot of freeze effects, and the disruption tools that are available (Mutanus and Theotar) have massive elements of luck to them and I am fed up of games being decided by luck. Sure , I can influence the luck but ultimately games are still decided by a roll of a die.
Does Fluffy Kael'thas count itself as the first minion? If so, then for 9-mana you can play Fluffy Kael'thas, Brann Bronzebeard, and any minion for nothing, which opens up all 8+ cost minions to abuse with Brann. Who wants double Jace Darkweaver? Or Kel'Thuzad, the Inevitable?
Thank you for writing this up :)
I am concerned by a lot of the developers comments though. For example, the comment about Harpoon Gun. They know it is a high-roll card and feels awful to play against but won't do anything about it because they fear hunter will become too weak. Having all classes be competitive is more important than how enjoyable the game is to play.
Maybe they are worried that peope who mainly play hunter will quit.
Sorry this reply is so late, I was away for a few days, but your post deserved an answer.
I follow you that Seek Guidance makes decks that are interesting to play but I find it appalling to play against. That is not to say I think it is too strong, but that it is unenjoyable to be matched up against.
I often feel like the only hope is that they do not curve out perfectly. Three times (that I remember) I have lost to a Purified Shard on turn 10 and it is frustrating and feels miserable. It - and Defend the Dwarven District - are matchups where I feel like my decisions do not matter. There is no interesting counterplay.
To take your example of Mutanus the Devourer: Against other decks there is a big question of when to play Mutanus, but that doesn't exist against quest-line priest. Wait for Xyrella, the Sanctified to be in hand and go. The game is decided by a 1 in whatever chance of eating Xyrella. I don't find that interesting.
So for me Seek Guidance sits in the same space as Tickatus as cards that are so frustrating to play against that they should never be more than a tiny percentage of ladder decks.
The Blackwater Behemoth change buffs questline priest and I think that questline belongs in a Hearthstone Hall of Fame for worst designed cards. If you are lucky enough to curve out perfectly we'll give you a 5-mana 7/7 with taunt which puts a spell into your deck that instantly wins the game, because who doesn't love instant win cards...
The Wildpaw Gnoll buff is scary. It can easily become oppressive because of Maestra of the Masquerade. I am also surprised they gave that many buffs to big beast hunter at the same time. I don't like them pushing mana cheating so hard.
I have been experimenting with a mage deck built around Wildfire and Blizzard. With Magister Dawngrasp and Grey Sage Parrot you can freeze their whole board for multiple turns, while the upgraded hero power provides massive damage over time and Mordresh Fire Eye and Reckless Apprentice are board clears and burst damage.
It has a great record against paladin.
There is still too much off-board damage in the game. I just lost 3 straight games and took a combined 8 damage from minions attacking me, and some of that came from Lady S'theno. I took over 100 damage from weapon attacks, spells, Pufferfist and Defias Cannoneer.
There is also Murkwater Scribe and Hot Streak, which synergise very well with Spitelash Siren. I don't see the pay-off though. An OTK will be hard because of board space issues, and there is no Flamewaker style card that benefits from playing spells/nagas. Unless you want to wait until 9-mana to play Spitelash Siren then build back up to 9 for Haleh, Matron Protectorate, but that is very slow.
I find it worrying how many of these cards are not good enough to see play in standard in their unnerfed forms, eg Kayn Sunfury, Shattershard Mystic, Bloodboil Brute, ...
I think that says a lot about the power level of the previous year.