Now the only problem is that while beating elites is easy, yes I said it being slightly overstated doesn't make your deck have superior wincons all it can do is play linearly while you can do anything you want.
I dont know what beats Jayce Lux right now.
It used to be that they would just run out of steam of have to go all in on progress day.
But now they can literally play 6 mana to draw two cards with 3 mana banked and 3 mana refunded they get to keep a second 6 mana spell online for free.
That means that punishing windows etc. Are very hard to find.
I think hallowed should work well on paper. It's pretty happy to see you trade off or cast spells on units that mean nothing and you just Harrowing to win.
So red Gwen, qwin Gwen, some rally heavy brew, a lot of this stuff is probably harder to control. Or you could try yetis again the 5/5 statline is immune to shock blast, and you also have the likes of thralls.
Just turbo out 8/8 statlines that p&z demacia don't have the tools to deal with.
What do you think guys how do we counter brew the other biggest meta deck?
I'm gonna give a real life example of brewing to victory.
I'm playing Lucian Heckarim a deck with a 40% winrate if we want to be charitable probably 30%.
Against elites a 57% winrate deck, so how do I win, I think that before I mulligan, before I click start, before the game has even begun I think how do I win 100% of this game...and only this game.
The answer?
Challenger landmark, I simple drag every single superior value engine the opponent has off the board and into the shadow realm.
I even trade my Lucian into their dog, why?
Cuz dog is top tier and Lucian is just a card.
I win by a landslide with the opponent being on double Smith which is optimal for your standard hard-core face smash at speed playstyle.
Drag, drag, drag with my ephemerals, hate spike, hate spike, the opponent doesn't even get to play the game.
So I won three times, I won when I brewed the deck, and I won off the agressive mulligan, and I won off my individual plays.
Thats how you brew to win.
Whoever this person was and I hope it wasnt a "good" player hit concede soooo fast it crashed my game. True story.
Now that does beg the question what is a more reliable metric of lower tier deck sucess if not statistics?
Some people look to individual player sucess for example James Ruban piloted a Shivana deck to the coveted 70/30 or whatever.
70% winrate over 30 games, but most people myself included would subjectively say Shivana is not an "amazing" champion right now and that Ruban could pilot 40 scraps of virtual cardboard to sucess.
So instead I might recommend time trials. How quickly can players climb with a list on average instead of hitting arbitrary metrics that don't really impact the average player experience.
Did you hit diamond in a couple hours without breaking a sweat? How long to diamond to masters? Are you playing 24/7 7 days a week or 1 day a week for a couple hours.
That more then anything reflects relative deck strength in modern LOR, how long, vs how sweaty. That's objective sucess.
For those that don't know last year mobalytics made the call that it could no longer responsible support statistics tracking for legends of runeterra.
It's all in the dev blog here but basically - the spread is too large to cover and the sample sizes are too small.
So deck diversity, plus unstable metas, plus games being played in the thousands vs the tens of thousands.
Why does this matter?
Well the statistical spread on decks actually massively shifts based on the smaller hosting websites we have available today.
Example go to mastering runeterra and you look at 3000 games of Jax played and it will be sub 50% so okay terrible deck.
But I go to runeterra ar and it says 2,000 Jax games played at 57% winrate basically saying it's an amazing deck this patch maybe because it outscales elites?
The truth is nobody knows the spreads are too wide, the sample sizes too small, and there are too many variables to know for sure.
Anyone saying otherwise is kind of stuck up their own butt.
So that brings us to this patch, we know that jayce is good, we know that elites are good.
Beyond that we have no idea, nobody is willing to play the lower tier lists enough to get reliable data, or brew counters for a concrete two deck meta that will last a month.
So maybe Mobalytics was right, stats for LOR are kinda garbage in 2023 and knowing that empowers you to play your own lists and search for your own solutions.
Can't even do math on a troll chant and I'm the bad player.
Demacia illoi isn't even a meta deck but sometimes when people think hand vomit is good play I remind them that if I play something one tick down the meme scale they instantly lose.
I've talked quite a bit on many platforms how the sudden mainstream success of both yetis and Leona surprised me quite a bit.
But the weirdness doesn't stop there:
Jayce Lux at 55% this ain't no isolated incident we are talking 500 games in the last 3 days consistent winrate with good old fashioned I'm a firing my Lazar!
Ziggs Thaliyah at 55% with 1500 games played. Oh boy and for you arsenal fans it is in fact running one copy.
I will mention it again but I mentioned on reddit that Annie ezreal was one of the top new lists and it is once again holding down 55%
Plunder back to 55% so great for thr gangplank lovers
You know what's down?
Nora cuz **** Nora and every single player that thought Nora decks where the meta and the future.
Sorry bit of a pet peave but sometimes you can't help but be right.
Overall even what 2, 3 weeks into this latest balance patch meta we are seeing huge moves on the tierlists, so I think calling this meta jello was the right call. It keeps on jiggling.
Depending on how some people are feeling on a giving day LOR "sucks" right now.
There's a lot of salt, a lot of hate, on reddit specifically.
People don't know what decks to play, and as soon as they find a list it's invalidated by another.
Oh man these midrange lists sure are strong, nevermind ryze is toxic combo is too good, how about them Swarm decks? Then we go back to midrange again and the circle continues.
Meanwhile the deck brewers are doing crazy **** and winning games.
We have a new competitive yeti list on mastering runeterra with Darius, we have daybreak at top of S tier on mobalytics.
The reality is that this meta is like jello, it keeps changing shape and nobody knows what's going to happen.
To me that's exciting.
It's dynamic, it's moving, it's constantly changing, a world where anything is possible.
But to the salt lords who have to keep their edge because it's their career or livelihood or their claim to fame this meta is cancer.
They say one deck is top tier, and next week it's not. They say Nora is everywhere then Nora drops 5%. They say FTR doesn't exist and then FTR hits 55%.
This truly is the card game of champions right now and I'm going to enjoy every drop of it till rotation hits.
Let the salt lords cry, and the hardcores get mad, I'm having a blast.
I've built countless decks in my spare time many of whom I bring back time and time again each time getting more refined and playable.
But most people brew in LOR to fire and forget.
Oh I tried that it didn't work rage quit now time to counter brew what I just faced.
You see that's not going to work against someone who has miles on their engine because they just instantly go to their backlog of decks and pull out something else.
Instead the solution should be simple, build to last, build to succeed and build to get better at the game.
So post patch tier lists are in and they are both a bit sketch...hear me out before the hate.
I had said that Ionia would be meta and then Bandle would surge to counter Ionia.
So what do we see in S tier we have Majin otk Ionia deck, and we have bandle aggro.
Great, but if we look at mastering runeterra there is one more sneaky category that is over performing and its one that I have talked about extensively as the counter to do nothing Bandle.
Tempo!!!
We see decks like kalista nocturn fearsome with a 57% winrate not because they are good but because it is undoubtedly a very high tempo deck.
We have my tempo illoi list largely outperforming Majin Ionia illoi combo list. (Anecdotal but I won't play 2,000 games sorry)
We have hard control lists, we have aggro lists like pirate aggro hitting 57%
So its not just hey here's the Ionia deck Majin made and 3 bandle lists to counter it.
The meta is actually exceptionally diverse and balanced.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see more major shifts moving forward.
So I have test tempo Illoi vs meta bandle and won every match.
I would only say that the only deck that hard counters mine is nasus. It just goes taller its what the deck does. But thankfully playing one big dude is really bad in this meta so if someone is gonna whip out a bad deck to counter yours that's usually where you want to be brewing wise.
I've been going on a bit of a schooling tear this fine Sunday. I do appologize I work an important job during the week so I'm getting it all out of the way now.
Sometimes winning is just winning, sometimes you need to level Champs, build a deck that does something, and play for the archetype.
A great example was the recent meta deck of echo Jinx, used to be an F tier deck leveling Champs is bad, proper deck building knowledge is bad, playing for the "quest" is bad.
But no a few numbers move around, a few subtle shift and now Echo the worst champion in the game in terms of winrate actually sported a 53% A tier stat line.
So the summarized lesson is here:
1. Play do nothing decks into excessive stall decks.
2. Play tempo decks into do nothing decks.
3. Always build for your Champs I dont care what anyone says.
4. Flex your archetype knowledge
5. Don't be a dick
There ya go LOR is my favorite card game even after Mogwais and Swims departures the people who brought me to this game and showed its possibilities
In their wake we have Allen and Majin but their rigid mindsets and firm meta orientations make them somewhat lacking for originality
Well nifty brings that in spades and originality my friends can't be beaten or countered.
See ya
-----final edit-----
The open attack delema:
Traditional knowledge in LOR says open attacking is always correct.
This is only true in elusive decks generally speaking and is a real hearthstone line of play.
Mtg traditional knowledge states that hp doesn't matter.
That it's better to wait things out leverage your hp as a resource and win decisively.
Illoi is very good at this and I'll share my list for what I think is one of the best decks in the meta right now.
There is some bad Ionia matchups depending on the amount of stall and their wincon but for the most part it's good into everything people are playing.
I used to run Riptide sermon but monster harpoon on average is cheaper and more efficient at eliminating midrange champions. Which the meta is full of right now.
I'm trying to tell you guys this deck is dope you can hit 3 jaxs on curve and an orn and sweat your nerdy little heart out and still lose.
But every now and then I will play a 50% winrate list that is optimized for tempo.
Then when you do nothing you will just lose.
Don't mistake beating my meme lists with greater memes as counter brewing the meta.
You will be awakened in two seconds when someone begins to try with non garbage.
----edit----
What did I just say you won't win if I play a non bad deck....sorry. meme players are the strongest because they have learned how to be adequate with bad cards.
Oh no and now you're losing to the baaaad stuff like changling transform? I'm in your head oooooooh.
I wouldnt recommend playing that hard into a single bounce or vengence but hey you do you lol
Now the only problem is that while beating elites is easy, yes I said it being slightly overstated doesn't make your deck have superior wincons all it can do is play linearly while you can do anything you want.
I dont know what beats Jayce Lux right now.
It used to be that they would just run out of steam of have to go all in on progress day.
But now they can literally play 6 mana to draw two cards with 3 mana banked and 3 mana refunded they get to keep a second 6 mana spell online for free.
That means that punishing windows etc. Are very hard to find.
I think hallowed should work well on paper. It's pretty happy to see you trade off or cast spells on units that mean nothing and you just Harrowing to win.
So red Gwen, qwin Gwen, some rally heavy brew, a lot of this stuff is probably harder to control. Or you could try yetis again the 5/5 statline is immune to shock blast, and you also have the likes of thralls.
Just turbo out 8/8 statlines that p&z demacia don't have the tools to deal with.
What do you think guys how do we counter brew the other biggest meta deck?
I'm gonna give a real life example of brewing to victory.
I'm playing Lucian Heckarim a deck with a 40% winrate if we want to be charitable probably 30%.
Against elites a 57% winrate deck, so how do I win, I think that before I mulligan, before I click start, before the game has even begun I think how do I win 100% of this game...and only this game.
The answer?
Challenger landmark, I simple drag every single superior value engine the opponent has off the board and into the shadow realm.
I even trade my Lucian into their dog, why?
Cuz dog is top tier and Lucian is just a card.
I win by a landslide with the opponent being on double Smith which is optimal for your standard hard-core face smash at speed playstyle.
Drag, drag, drag with my ephemerals, hate spike, hate spike, the opponent doesn't even get to play the game.
So I won three times, I won when I brewed the deck, and I won off the agressive mulligan, and I won off my individual plays.
Thats how you brew to win.
Whoever this person was and I hope it wasnt a "good" player hit concede soooo fast it crashed my game. True story.
Elites are very good right now they are the best aggro deck.
And Jayce is the best control deck.
All right were done let's go home guys.
Lor has the largest cardpool in its history accessible only for the next 30 days.
But lets see if we can make immortal kegs work.
Instead of you know actually making decks that actually do things.
I guess this is what it means to be spoiled for choice and choosing nothing.
But I'll tell you guys I don't forget a single deck and I can tell you they all have their merits.
Did bandle die because elites got 1 card?
No
Did noxious die because P and Z got draw?
No
Did every single pre-built archetype die for no reason?
No
The reality is I'm seeing an unprecedented amount of brewing laziness while everyone just waits for rotation to tell them what to play.
You know what's better then immortal kegs and was actual a real deck at one point?
Shadow isles bilgewater ping control or kegs thresh gangplank.
Why not try building a non dumb deck with them?
I dont know when everyone got so bad at the game honestly, where's mogwai and swim when you need them.
I love Lor probably more than most people.
So if I see someone googling a list to counter mine I don't get salty I feel over joyed.
Like I bothered them so much winning with my memes that they were like...God better counter this pile of trash fast!
Thank you LOR community for the amount of respect and faith you put in me.
Cuz I don't get salty, but I wonder can you say the same ;)
Now that does beg the question what is a more reliable metric of lower tier deck sucess if not statistics?
Some people look to individual player sucess for example James Ruban piloted a Shivana deck to the coveted 70/30 or whatever.
70% winrate over 30 games, but most people myself included would subjectively say Shivana is not an "amazing" champion right now and that Ruban could pilot 40 scraps of virtual cardboard to sucess.
So instead I might recommend time trials. How quickly can players climb with a list on average instead of hitting arbitrary metrics that don't really impact the average player experience.
Did you hit diamond in a couple hours without breaking a sweat? How long to diamond to masters? Are you playing 24/7 7 days a week or 1 day a week for a couple hours.
That more then anything reflects relative deck strength in modern LOR, how long, vs how sweaty. That's objective sucess.
https://mobalytics.gg/blog/dev-blog-the-future-of-our-lor-meta-stats/
For those that don't know last year mobalytics made the call that it could no longer responsible support statistics tracking for legends of runeterra.
It's all in the dev blog here but basically - the spread is too large to cover and the sample sizes are too small.
So deck diversity, plus unstable metas, plus games being played in the thousands vs the tens of thousands.
Why does this matter?
Well the statistical spread on decks actually massively shifts based on the smaller hosting websites we have available today.
Example go to mastering runeterra and you look at 3000 games of Jax played and it will be sub 50% so okay terrible deck.
But I go to runeterra ar and it says 2,000 Jax games played at 57% winrate basically saying it's an amazing deck this patch maybe because it outscales elites?
The truth is nobody knows the spreads are too wide, the sample sizes too small, and there are too many variables to know for sure.
Anyone saying otherwise is kind of stuck up their own butt.
So that brings us to this patch, we know that jayce is good, we know that elites are good.
Beyond that we have no idea, nobody is willing to play the lower tier lists enough to get reliable data, or brew counters for a concrete two deck meta that will last a month.
So maybe Mobalytics was right, stats for LOR are kinda garbage in 2023 and knowing that empowers you to play your own lists and search for your own solutions.
Brewing is a lot like sales or marketing.
It's learning about the power of losing.
Through loss you get better.
You brew better, your decks perform better.
You might even start ruffling a few feathers.
Not because they are good players but because they haven't embraced the power of losing.
Good brewers, people like Mogwai they wouldn't just upload a list after it popped into their head.
They would pressure cook that **** till they had something that was actually good.
So I guess my message to the LOR community right now is do better...not by playing the strongest hand but learning how to lose.
I've mentioned this before but there's a big difference between meming and being off meta.
Mogwai, Swim these guys understood that it's okay to play unique lists but only if they can beat what's popular.
So right now that's two things, one is jayce, and one is elites.
Pick one if you can't beat either your deck essentially shouldn't exist in its current form.
So how do you build good off meta brews?
Well two things play the matchup and see if you can climb, two if you find that intimidating then play the matchup with a friend.
As soon as you can start winning with your trash vs their treasure you have an off meta brew.
If you can't its a meme...sorry.
So we are getting 10 new variety cards coming soon to LOR and about a month to play around with them in our massive card pool.
Will it be removal, tribal support, archetype support, who knows but any of that would be awesome.
On the less exciting note they are finally gonna start "deleting" rotating cards in LOR in a month with the next expansion:
1. Good news is stable metas with top decks for those that like climbing
2. Bad news for the first time ever you will not have free acess to the complete card pool in LOR for deck crafting
Just to give a detailed account of what this means, Jayce for example exists in two of the top control decks in jayce Lux, and jayce heimer.
If he gets rotated that would free up room potentially for other control archetypes to exist.
Bad news is Lux is no longer playable in the meta.
So I know for me I'm in wait and see mode, new variety cards will be awesome, rotation might just break the game in a dozen ways we will see.
Can't even do math on a troll chant and I'm the bad player.
Demacia illoi isn't even a meta deck but sometimes when people think hand vomit is good play I remind them that if I play something one tick down the meme scale they instantly lose.
I've talked quite a bit on many platforms how the sudden mainstream success of both yetis and Leona surprised me quite a bit.
But the weirdness doesn't stop there:
Jayce Lux at 55% this ain't no isolated incident we are talking 500 games in the last 3 days consistent winrate with good old fashioned I'm a firing my Lazar!
Ziggs Thaliyah at 55% with 1500 games played. Oh boy and for you arsenal fans it is in fact running one copy.
I will mention it again but I mentioned on reddit that Annie ezreal was one of the top new lists and it is once again holding down 55%
Plunder back to 55% so great for thr gangplank lovers
You know what's down?
Nora cuz **** Nora and every single player that thought Nora decks where the meta and the future.
Sorry bit of a pet peave but sometimes you can't help but be right.
Overall even what 2, 3 weeks into this latest balance patch meta we are seeing huge moves on the tierlists, so I think calling this meta jello was the right call. It keeps on jiggling.
Depending on how some people are feeling on a giving day LOR "sucks" right now.
There's a lot of salt, a lot of hate, on reddit specifically.
People don't know what decks to play, and as soon as they find a list it's invalidated by another.
Oh man these midrange lists sure are strong, nevermind ryze is toxic combo is too good, how about them Swarm decks? Then we go back to midrange again and the circle continues.
Meanwhile the deck brewers are doing crazy **** and winning games.
We have a new competitive yeti list on mastering runeterra with Darius, we have daybreak at top of S tier on mobalytics.
The reality is that this meta is like jello, it keeps changing shape and nobody knows what's going to happen.
To me that's exciting.
It's dynamic, it's moving, it's constantly changing, a world where anything is possible.
But to the salt lords who have to keep their edge because it's their career or livelihood or their claim to fame this meta is cancer.
They say one deck is top tier, and next week it's not. They say Nora is everywhere then Nora drops 5%. They say FTR doesn't exist and then FTR hits 55%.
This truly is the card game of champions right now and I'm going to enjoy every drop of it till rotation hits.
Let the salt lords cry, and the hardcores get mad, I'm having a blast.
I've been on out of cards for a long time.
I've built countless decks in my spare time many of whom I bring back time and time again each time getting more refined and playable.
But most people brew in LOR to fire and forget.
Oh I tried that it didn't work rage quit now time to counter brew what I just faced.
You see that's not going to work against someone who has miles on their engine because they just instantly go to their backlog of decks and pull out something else.
Instead the solution should be simple, build to last, build to succeed and build to get better at the game.
Dude it's a meme deck...like I dont even know what to say.
Am I that strong that my junk needs hard counter brews for me to be stopped?
Wait isn't that basically the same as Majin?
Am I the meme Majin or Swim 2.0?
I might be :)
Like if you're losing to mono freijord ramp with a splash of demacia don't feel bad.
Well maybe feel a little bad but you don't need to whip put meta tenticles to feel better about yourself.
I've been building decks for yeeeeears.
Of course my memes are almost as good as meta.
It comes with practice don't feel bad about it.
Like don't listen to streamers "here's the number 1 deck to climb to diamond with"
Dude the number of times I've climbed with complete dokey that I built myself...would be every time because I don't play meta lists.
So if I' diamond with garbage I'm basically omega masters.
Of course my memes are strong.
I dont like aggro, I don't.
I play next to zero aggro generally speaking.
But Ionia otk is such a polarizing archetype that it only has one weakness.
It has a 30% matchup table into every single aggro list.
Pirates yep, bandle yep, fearsome yep, hallowed yep.
But there is one list that trumps them all.
Pink region otk (rhyze) has a 20% winrate into lurk.
So I don't care if I have to play lurk into all the smooth brains running otk by running an even smoother brain deck I will do it.
You'll lose roughly 80% of the time.
Sorry you're playing something degenerate you don't get to complain.
https://app.mobalytics.gg/lor/meta-tier-list
https://masteringruneterra.com/meta-tier-list/
So post patch tier lists are in and they are both a bit sketch...hear me out before the hate.
I had said that Ionia would be meta and then Bandle would surge to counter Ionia.
So what do we see in S tier we have Majin otk Ionia deck, and we have bandle aggro.
Great, but if we look at mastering runeterra there is one more sneaky category that is over performing and its one that I have talked about extensively as the counter to do nothing Bandle.
Tempo!!!
We see decks like kalista nocturn fearsome with a 57% winrate not because they are good but because it is undoubtedly a very high tempo deck.
We have my tempo illoi list largely outperforming Majin Ionia illoi combo list. (Anecdotal but I won't play 2,000 games sorry)
We have hard control lists, we have aggro lists like pirate aggro hitting 57%
So its not just hey here's the Ionia deck Majin made and 3 bandle lists to counter it.
The meta is actually exceptionally diverse and balanced.
So I wouldn't be surprised to see more major shifts moving forward.
So I have test tempo Illoi vs meta bandle and won every match.
I would only say that the only deck that hard counters mine is nasus. It just goes taller its what the deck does. But thankfully playing one big dude is really bad in this meta so if someone is gonna whip out a bad deck to counter yours that's usually where you want to be brewing wise.
I've been going on a bit of a schooling tear this fine Sunday. I do appologize I work an important job during the week so I'm getting it all out of the way now.
Sometimes winning is just winning, sometimes you need to level Champs, build a deck that does something, and play for the archetype.
A great example was the recent meta deck of echo Jinx, used to be an F tier deck leveling Champs is bad, proper deck building knowledge is bad, playing for the "quest" is bad.
But no a few numbers move around, a few subtle shift and now Echo the worst champion in the game in terms of winrate actually sported a 53% A tier stat line.
So the summarized lesson is here:
1. Play do nothing decks into excessive stall decks.
2. Play tempo decks into do nothing decks.
3. Always build for your Champs I dont care what anyone says.
4. Flex your archetype knowledge
5. Don't be a dick
There ya go LOR is my favorite card game even after Mogwais and Swims departures the people who brought me to this game and showed its possibilities
In their wake we have Allen and Majin but their rigid mindsets and firm meta orientations make them somewhat lacking for originality
Well nifty brings that in spades and originality my friends can't be beaten or countered.
See ya
-----final edit-----
The open attack delema:
Traditional knowledge in LOR says open attacking is always correct.
This is only true in elusive decks generally speaking and is a real hearthstone line of play.
Mtg traditional knowledge states that hp doesn't matter.
That it's better to wait things out leverage your hp as a resource and win decisively.
Illoi is very good at this and I'll share my list for what I think is one of the best decks in the meta right now.
There is some bad Ionia matchups depending on the amount of stall and their wincon but for the most part it's good into everything people are playing.
I used to run Riptide sermon but monster harpoon on average is cheaper and more efficient at eliminating midrange champions. Which the meta is full of right now.
I'm trying to tell you guys this deck is dope you can hit 3 jaxs on curve and an orn and sweat your nerdy little heart out and still lose.
You see I'm a meme player I play bad decks.
But every now and then I will play a 50% winrate list that is optimized for tempo.
Then when you do nothing you will just lose.
Don't mistake beating my meme lists with greater memes as counter brewing the meta.
You will be awakened in two seconds when someone begins to try with non garbage.
----edit----
What did I just say you won't win if I play a non bad deck....sorry. meme players are the strongest because they have learned how to be adequate with bad cards.
Oh no and now you're losing to the baaaad stuff like changling transform? I'm in your head oooooooh.
I wouldnt recommend playing that hard into a single bounce or vengence but hey you do you lol
Just keep playing stupid do nothing cards that cycle and have infinite value.
Beats freezes, beats bounces, beats removal, beats stuns and it beats the meta right now.
This came to a head with a tristana deck I found that ran minion. Kind of genius, the deck works well.
Even out valued anivia.