A few days ago, famous Hearthstone streamer Jambre (here are his Twitter and Twitch) started an interesting discussion on Twitter regarding the possibility of implementing balance changes in today's Standard meta.
Many notorious voices from the community decided to answer that post and what we got is an interesting picture about how the pros would like some cards to be changed. It is also important to notice that while some classes are clearly over the top right now, what most players (like Casie) suggested is buffing rather than nerfing - something we've been seeing since Ashes of Outland (when Torrent, Shattered Rumbler and The Lurker Below received a power-up) and that we'd love to see again.
Here is a recap together with our personal takes.
Disclaimer: the following cards are the ones that feel problematic in some ways - the fact that more cards from a single class appear in this list doesn't mean that they should all get nerfed. Nerfs should weaken a class, not destroy it.
Twin Slice
Suggested change: Second Slice grants +1 Attack instead of +2.
Twin Slice has been a crazy good card since its release, it doesn’t matter which of its two forms you’re talking about.
When it was 0 mana it allowed crazy turns like Battlefiend The Coin Battlefiend Twin Slice for a turn 1 4/4 with very little chance to get the board back; turn 5 Twin Slice into Glaivebound Adept; or massive Altruis the Outcast swings (mandatory Kibler’s clip from a while ago).
On 1 mana, it grants more damage, the ability to get generated by Wandmaker and high synergy with cards like Aldrachi Warblades, Bladed Lady and Blade Dance (a card we’ll talk about in a second).
This balance change, suggested by Ridiculous Hat, could weaken both Aggro and Soul Demon Hunter, buying the opponents a bit more time to close or stabilize the game.
Blade Dance
Suggested change: Cost increased from 2 to 4 mana.
This change is mainly suggested so that Blade Dance won't be played for free after Skull of Gul'dan anymore. As Blizz stated a long time ago, large minions should be Demon Hunter’s weakness; however, Illidan can easily get a huge amount of face attack and a 2 mana fully charged Cascading Disaster is quite the polarizing move.
My personal suggestion would be that Blade Dance should consider only the equipped weapon's attack (but that would make it a very terrible card) or should consume the player's face swing for that turn.
Shardshatter Mystic
Suggested change: Cost increased from 3 to 4 mana.
Quote From Ridiculous Hat Soul DH needs one board control card […] to move by one mana
3 mana Duskbreaker for Demon Hunter is not bad, huh? Pretty much what the quote up here says: even though Demon Hunter should be about face damage, it has way to efficient board clears for (who would have guessed) too small mana investment. This is probably an aut aut: either Blade Dance bites the dust, or Shardshatter Mystic does.
Overgrowth
Suggested change: Cost increased from 4 to 5 mana.
Quote From Jambre Feels like Druid has been getting more extreme with every set. Would hate to see Malfurion get a set of nerfs, be dumpster for this expansion and then give it a set like Librams/K&C Warlock (obviously not that powerful) to build on for next year.
We've all come to personally experience that when a Druid hits Overgrowth on curve the win chances dramatically shift in their favor: the card is so good that it is able by itself to determine whether Malfurion will be able to make it to the end game and play the big stuff (Survival of the Fittest, Carnival Clown and Ysera, Unleashed) or just succumb to aggro.
The fact that Overgrowth will stay in Standard for more than a year means that it will surely need a rework at some point: even though Guardian Animals just took the bullet in its place, why not now?
Little upside of this change is that Anubisath Defender would become more relevant, Steel Beetle could return to see some play and Bogbeam/Ironbark could be casted in the same turn Overgrowth is played.
Boggspine Knuckles
Suggested change: Cost increased from 5 to 6 mana.
I have to be honest with you: this is a suggestion I didn't see coming. Shaman has been unplayable throughout the entire Year of the Phoenix and now that the Old Gods gave Thrall some decent tools to play with, someone's not okay with it. Jokes apart, the main concern seems to be that the class is able to cheese out early highrolls because of Lightning Bloom, creating gamebreaking curves that can close the match on the spot. Even though the cards are different, this is the same problem Shaman showed around a year ago, during the Doom in the Tomb event: early Evolve highrolls are unstoppable most of the times; even more when your opponent can just bypass taunts thanks to Revolve.
Bladestorm
Suggested change: Cost increased from 3 to 4 mana.
Quote From Ridiculous Hat Bladestorm is going to be around [for more than a year] and both Bomb and Control Warrior need to get worse.”
It is funny, because when Bladestorm got released people thought it was a reverse (and much worse) Defile: little did they know, since then it's been an auto-include in every Warrior deck that is not sheer aggro.
Even if it doesn't clear the board, Bladestorm is a better Lightning Storm most of the times (and without Overload: (2)!) and it can remove big threats out of Shield Slam's reach that could otherwise be a headache (Edwin VanCleef is a good example). Unless, of course, a minion manages to get over 30 Health :)
Given its effectiveness, it is easy to see why the community would like to see a change to this spell.
Risky Skipper
Suggested change: Cost increased from 1 to 2 mana or Health decreased from 3 to 2.
People have been asking for ages for a change to Risky Skipper: since its release in Galakrond’s Awakening, it didn’t take much time to pros to exploit its Wild Pyromancer-ish effect and win games. The fact that it can be tutored with Ancharrr makes its swing turns extremely reliable and consistent: even in Wild people tend to play the Skipper-Ancharrr-Armorsmith package just to shut down aggro boards and gain a ton of armor at the same time. Back in July, Skipper likely dodged the nerf because the devs were afraid that it would have killed Warrior, but maybe now that Garrosh has received new cards from Scholomance and Darkmoon Faire the situation might be different.
What do you think of these suggestions? Do you agree with them? Are there any other cards you'd like to see nerfed?
Comments
I respect that DH is an attacking and not just weapon class, but nerfing the card to 4 mana seems like it will banish it to Shadowflame/[Hearthstone Card (Blade Furry) Not Found] tier of uselessness. Regardless, the card needs some kind of alteration, but I don't know what exactly.
As for Overgrowth, I meant that, at 10 mana, perhaps the card should draw 2 cards instead of only 1 if the mana cost of Overgrowth is changed to 5. The card definitely should not be 5 mana that says "Gain two empty Mana Crystals. Draw two cards." Instead, I meant Excess Mana should draw 2 cards for a 5 mana Overgrowth specifically. If a 5-mana Overgrowth only draws 1 card off of Excess Mana, that might be what prevents the card from being playable; the decks would likely be super high-roll-y and your winrate would likely go hand-in-hand with whether or not you played a 5-mana Overgrowth on curve. Whereas, even if you didn't draw Overgrowth before turn 10, you could at least draw 2 cards for 5 mana.
I don't think aggro DH is the problem specifically, but aggro cards in general. 1-mana cards are unhealthy for a game because they incentivize fast play. Team 5 clearly likes the idea of pushing cheap, fast cards, so Hearthstone is only going to become more aggro-oriented over time. Cards like Acrobatics and Stiltstepper aren't necessarily the problem; rather, the fact that the cards that you can and want to play that have synergy with those cards is ultimately the problem. If you are happy to draw two 1-mana cards on turn 5+, that indicates that the game is rewarding low-cost cards too much. This problem is more about game design preference, and Team 5 clearly prefers aggro to be strong.
I think Libram Paladin has some sort of hard counter in classes that can easily transform minions.
The problem is that Shaman has just started being playable and Mage is in the trashcan right now.
As I said, I don't necessarily think Libram Paladin is broken, but I do think it needs to be adjusted in some way. It's too strong for its versatility in my opinion. Personally, I wish the package were more defense oriented, removing the incessant buffs from Libram of Wisdom; unfortunately, I don't know how to change Libram of Wisdom to match that style of play. Librams have counterplay, but their strength and the lack of solid Silence mechanics makes it really difficult for half of the other classes to deal with them. I think it just forces the meta's hand too much because of its strength and infinite capabilities.
Agreed, but the problem is, without librams paladins were kind of dumpster tier, relegated to playing murloc aggro decks (remember tip the scales?) or meme dragon decks. The biggest problem I see right now is super powerful neutrals like Pen Flinger and Broom. Without those, paladin is still counterable in a number of fashions.
Also the other inherent issue is the lack of priests on ladder.
The meta is being warped by Demon Hunter aggro and hunter aggro. As such, the only classes that can compete with that are:
If demon hunter got nerfed enough, it would allow breathing room for other decks to flourish, thus allowing paladin's natural counter (priests with their steal/silence effects) to push the meta in a different direction.
So the better then would be to nto have hof'd spellbreaker and make ti so standard actually has good enoygh in quality adn quantity of nescarly techs in core set/always in standard instead of stuff like edwin/giants gettings way more complaints cause al answers almsot have eben nerfd:hof'd or rotated out.
Spellbreaker would definitely help tone down the Libram package. For whatever reason, they decided Spellbreaker should be HOF'd, and so we just have to deal with a post-Spellbreaker standard meta.
Yeah i dont get that part on blizz really when just remove necarly tech/asnwers instead of keeping them, but hey maybe owl will be a bit better with classic rework.
We can only hope for the classic rework to come; until then who... who.
Control warrior is only good because it beats aggro demon hunter and they're the most prevalent deck out there, nerfing demon hunter to where less people play it means nerfing control warrior.
Missing Dragonbane, Phase Stalker and Verocious Reader here
I see where you're coming from, but it looks like that Warrior and Demon Hunter are gathering all the attention from the pros.
I think Dragonbane is fine, just really good; on the other hand, I agree with your complaints about Phase Stalker and, especially, Voracious Reader.
I agree that Dragonbane is a fine card. It enables a semi-control hunter archtype or a face archetype and doesn't pigeonhole the class (which is a good thing). On the other hand, I don't really enjoy cards that cheat out other cards for free.
Take Phase Stalker for example. A 2 mana 2/3 body, that when you "inspire" (also, small side rant: There's literally NO reason for them to not re-use the keyword here...I'm honestly super annoyed that Hearthstone devs REFUSE to use previous keywords (except for discover which they apaprently have no problem re-using)) casts a free secret from your deck. You could compare it to Ancient Mysterious for mage (both are 2 mana, both pull a secret for free from your deck...except Phase Stalker is also a body. Yes, technically in order to gain value from phase stalker you have to have "4 mana" to use the inspire proc, but there are ways to cheat that out as well. Overall I just think what this card does is too good. And it being a 2/3 is problematic. It should be a 2/2 so it's easier to clear early on.
And voracious reader is a problem in many decks. It's essentially a BETTER jeeves. And that saw a ton of play in aggro decks. I understand at some point, similar mechanics and ideas are going to be recycled, but honestly it's like they aren't even trying to balance cards.
Dragonbane is more or less a victim in this case of Hunter being good in general. The biggest issue with Hunter is that they just have a lot of very very good cards, but most of them are inherently broken themselves. Dragonbane simply feels like the most reasonable target to give a slight nerf (make it a 3/4 for example)
Not only cards must be considered but also deck standings. If you touch Soul Dh, you also have to do something about Warrior and Aggro DH, since they are best 3 decks, followed closely by HL Hunter.
Said that, DH beign continuously strong is also bad for the players perception of the meta. Blade dance is just supid, tho I'd would also suggest considering the change so it only hits 2 targets, as Zeddy said. Twinslice change was never good for me, I think it should have chenged to one of the pieces costing 0 and the other 1, still both giving only +1 attack. I think Aldrachi Warblades are also a problem, maybe make it more expensive or idk; you used to be able to race a face deck, but DH just has too much healing which is why Il'gynoth is also so frightening.
OTK decks are stupid imo, but Warrior's requires so many pieces and is very skill testing. Still, if it is here to stay, maybe change it in a future patch. Bladestorm is not great, I hesitate to run it now, any nerf to it would make it unplayable I think.
I think Skipper is fine, Warrior should have a way to gain a lot of armor fast and the combo requires a lot of pieces. It also rotates soon.
Druid is not in a good place right now but Overgroth is still a problem.
Shaman deserves to shine a bit but if it just becomes dominat due to ohter nerfs, something should be done. It's a shame that only fast and highroll-y decks see play, control shaman is such an interesting deck.
Maybe some neutrals should be changed, too. For example, Voracious reader should maybe draw up to 2 or just be a 1/1/2.
Looks like someone read the last VS meta report.
I can't tell if this is a tongue in cheek snarky comment, or a hat tip comment. In either case, it either needs clarification if the latter, or needs to not be said if the former. (If I want to read snarky asinine comments I can just go to reddit)
Clarification? Lol really?
No Hunter/Paladin nerfs but nerfing Druid? WTF
We just reported which cards the pros were talking about.
What is your personal opinion? Which Hunter/Paladin cards would you like to see changed?
I can see justification for any of the nerfs, they all don't need hit, but how does Paladin not get mentioned? Certainly there is something there that's annoying, powerful, and needs addressed.
Also, overgrowth and survival of the Fittest need it, and not just because I have golden copies. (I'm only afloat on dust right now because they nerfed evocation and I happened to open one of those in golden on day 1 of outland)