I agree with this, anything that increases mana cost is also a nerf with no upside, even if it get benefits from mutate/other evolve spell, because now we have more time to answer it with removal spell or board control.
There are some hard-to-kill minions like Tyrantus too, but you will have more time to deal with it. Like you said, it’s much better.
A healthy nerf but very unexpected from my side. It was an autoinclude in every shaman deck as well as mogu, so nerfing them will make shaman generally weaker.
as you might have heard, Mogu Fleshshaper will be changed soon (in less than 24 hours to be precise), moving its cost from 7 up to 9. To be honest I was ok with this balance change, but I've read more than one person saying that this should be a buff instead of a nerf. It is true?
Show Spoiler
No, it's not.
Let's look at it closely.
I'll now list every single 8 and 10 drops currently available in Standard, dividing them in 3 categories: potentially game ending (you definitely highballed), good (nice upgrade) and bad (worse or not much better). In order to give this rates I'll take in consideration a scenario in which the game isn't already decided. Consider also that some minions are in the middle ground between two tiers, so you may not agree about some decisions, but you should be able to see the logic behind all. Let's start with the 8 drops: POTENTIALLY GAME ENDING (8): Al'Akir the Windlord, Deathwing, Mad Aspect, Mosh'Ogg Enforcer, Tirion Fordring, Walking Fountain, Zzeraku the Warped, Grommash Hellscream, Batterhead.
In the end we have 8 really good outcomes, 20 decent ones and 8 bad ones, with the average result being a 5,5/7, with an 11% chance to have Rush (4/36), a 6% chance to have Charge or Windfury (2/36 in both cases), a 19,4% chance to have Taunt (7/36), an 11% chance to have a somewhat useful deathrattle (again 4/36) and finally a 61% chance to get more than a simple vanilla minion (22/36).
This time we have 4 really good outcomes, 8 good ones and just a bad one, with a 1/12 chance to get taunt and roughly a 50% chance (5/12) to get something more than a vanilla minion, with an average result of a 7,8/8,9.
Now, from what gathered here we can draw these conclusions:
none of the two pools is bad (no shit Sherlock).
while the 10 drops pool has a higher chance to get a really good minion, the 8 drops pool will get you something that will immediately affect the board with a much higher frequency.
the average minion you'll get from the 10 drops pool has +2/+2 compared to the one you'd get from the 8 drops pool, which is fair if you consider the vanilla test.
That being said, why and when do you play Mogu Fleshshaper (followed by and evolve card, of course)? The answer is simple: the faster the better. You want to get the most possible out of you mana cheating effect. That's why even Murloc builds used to run him since they didn't want to play for value/control.
Imagine this average scenario: 1 drop + totem + enemy minion + other minion (second totem, second enemy minion, lackey, Faceless Lackey shenanigans,...) will discount Mogu for 4 and thus you'll be able to play it on turn 3, with (like I said before) 28 in 36 chances to get a well statted 8 drop that your opponent will have to answer in one or two turns.
What about 9 mana Mogu? In these case, you'll have to wait at least two more turns, in order to
play more minions in order to get more discount
keep the board spread out against your opponent's trades
get more mana in order to be able to actually play the card
Given these premises, the surprise/game breaking effect of Mogu would be less impacting on the board, to the point where a +2/+2 couldn't be enough to compensate the turns spent in order to set up an appropriate table. I'll say it again: the Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate combo's main goal is not to put as much stats as possible on the board, but do it the fastest you can, in order to have more chances for your big drop to stick. Therefore, I can affirm that Mogu Fleshshaper's balance change is meant to be a nerf and not a buff.
TLDR: answering an 8 drop on turn 4 is much more difficult than dealing with a 10 drop on turn 6/7 - it's a nerf, not a buff.
Thanks for reading, I hope you've found this post interesting and insightful. I'm really looking forward to read your own opinions!
Overall, I'm alright with these changes. I don't think Blizzard wanted Galakrond Shaman to be unplayable (I mean, they gave Galakrond, the Tempest for free for everyone, so new and budget players should at least be able to play with something that can win), so they made changes to weaken it's early game to make it more vulnerable against aggressive decks.
I think they will definitely cut Mogu Fleshshaper and Mutate because that combo can't come out as early as turn 3 or 4 anymore and at that point why don't you just run Sea Giant instead?
The Sludge Slurper nerf is interesting and reminds me of the EVIL Miscreant nerf: not too impactful, but also keeps the early game of their class in check. Still a powerful card as you can just still curve into the lackey while you are overloaded on turn 2.
I think the Faceless Corruptor nerf is not enough. 8/8 in stats on turn 5 or 6 is still really good and the fact that they still have rush is insanely tempo driven. It's still like a neutral Multi-Shot but with 1 or 2 4 attack bodies and not random. No decks that are running the card will cut it.
Lastly, I'm very scared that Necrium Apothecary didn't get looked at. The card creates early game high rolls pretty consistently that feels like you can only win against the Rogue is if they don't draw it. We might want to start teching weapon removal and silence into our decks if Rogue becomes the top class, which I think might be the case.
Of course, these are just my thoughts. Just giving people a perspective to think on.
Wow. The thing that amazes me isn't just the weak nerfs, but the lack of communication that came with them. It would go a long way if the blog post just spared a few more sentences to say "we hear your frustration, and this is why we think these changes are best."
I recently started playing Clash Royale, and they just had an issue where some card changes upset their player base. The company responded with a detailed, respectful blog post that was multiple pages long. It covered the development team's philosophy and reasons for the change, discussed the ways they think the change succeeded and failed, enumerated the complaints that they were hearing from the players, and then explained how they thought their new changes would address this. The post ended, of course, with a deep apology and a hope that they could win back their players' trust. And it was posted in the app, so even casual players like me would learn all about their mistake. I'm used to reading Blizzard's communications instead, and that post was eye-opening to me.
Whether it's true or not, today's response from Blizzard gives us the impression that they don't hear the frustration of their playerbase or understand the root issues. Do they realize that this is three metas in a row with progressively more broken Shaman decks? That people felt betrayed even before DoD was released last week? That this is a game of subtle interactions, and raising the cost of cards isn't a universal fix? Do they really think that Sludge Slurper is a bigger issue than Dragon's Pack, or do they just prefer a broken game to giving people dust for Epic and Legendary cards? How carefully have they considered their decision to raise the cost of a card that gives value because of its cost?
Blizzard has a lot of skilled people, and access to a lot of data that we don't see. Maybe they have good answers to all of those questions. But if they won't share those answers with us, a lot of people are going to assume the worst. They are running out of chances to restore our trust.
I agree, but Galvadon for example has similar battlecry with adapt mechanic. I still think they should remove the battlecry part, with it's cost 6 as it is now, it would be perfect.
Really seems almost like the devs are more concerned with Battlegrounds now than the problems in the main game. I honestly expected heavier needs to more cards. Frankly, Shaman still has an absolute insane amount of value from a handful of cards. The double Invoke from Corrupt Elementalist should simply have been dropped to a single Invoke. A 3/3 and a 2/1 rush for 5 Mana is plenty fair. Invocation of Frost was one I honestly expected to see hit. One Mana to freeze a minion and generate a 2/1 rush minion is pretty strong. Two of these early is more than enough to trigger Dragon's Pack and provide even more crazy value. Faceless Corruptor while definitely overpowered and still incredibly strong at 4/4 is at least available to all classes, so I hate this card a little less. And Mogu Fleshshaper is still busted. There needs to be a couple more minions on the board, and they get a random 10-drop instead. That really doesn't solve the issue with the card at all, and may potentially make it worse depending on what it evolves into. Hopefully, taken together, there's enough tools in competing decks to slow Shaman down a bit, but I still think we're in for a lot of Shaman everywhere for a while. There's just absolutely too much value in the class right now. Unless they're draw is just garbage they can easily control the board in almost any matchup.
I will still disenchant them... I mean if they are still in meta I will recraft them with no dust loss, but I'm not taking chances... even if we think nerf is nothing big, usually players are not all that good at predicting such stuff...
I think the reason they don't change the evolve mana cost is to do with UI simplicity. Mousing over a minion that was summoned for a different mana cost, you would need to see both - the original cost and what it was summoned for. I think that goes against their paradigm of an uncluttered UI that has to present a minimum of important information.
Is there a way to do it that I'm missing?
Why not just have the mana cost Green when it was played at a reduced cost? Just like any stat change on a minion. It's simple and already a feature in the game that won't cause any confusion.
As far as I'm concerned, the 4 health is a much bigger issue than the 5 attack. It's very hard for control to clear 4 health in the midgame, making this card a lot of free tempo against control, and a strong board control tool against midrange and aggro. Both of those are still true after this change.
Makes me remember boom's nerf because of the cost, but still, I don't know how much it will affect it since 10 drops are not bad (for the evolve effect) and its cost heavily is affected by the board which differs from match to match.
Honestly with this small Shaman nerfs (Sludge Slurper, seriously?) I was expecting some buffs to the weakest classes like Priest to compensate (Galakrond Priest 36% winrate). I'm sure Galakrond Shaman can drop from the current 59% winrate close to his brothers Quest and Overload at 54%. Still a really Shaman-y Tier 1 environment.
DID they, though? I mean: [Hearthstone Card (Faceless Corrupter) Not Found] is in 55% of all ladder decks right now with a Played Winrate of 53%, and their solution was to reduce its attack by 1. I don't know about you, but I'm keeping my 5 mana double 4/4s. And all the Shaman-specific changes aren't much better.
Really, the only upside I see here: people who have already climbed ladder for the month with Galakrond Shaman might be incentivized dust these eight cards and have some fun with other decks for the next 2 weeks before inevitably recrafting them all in January.
There was an update about the patch on Discord earlier. They're going to try for a hotfix on Friday instead of rolling it back.
Unfortunately we discovered two major issues after deploying patch 0.17.3:
1) The 2v2 event steps on those of Kryptic Gaming's 2v2 Tournament finals.
2) The abilities for eight cards (Avenging Alpha, Back Alley Ronin, Earthslide, Gemcutter Spider, Herald of War, and Leshy Greene) are borked.
We decided that it would be better to go forward with the patch and try for a hotfix on Friday (as opposed to rolling back). The hotfix will be to make arranged 2v2 games use the standard rules as opposed to the special event rules and to fix the cards listed above. Until then, the above cards will be banned from constructed play (assuming that system works, this'll be our first time using it live).
Mogu Flashshaper - Nerf or Buff?
I agree with the post above.
They key to mogu is how early they can drop a 8 mana minion. 2 Mana is a big difference.
Mogu Flashshaper - Nerf or Buff?
I agree with this, anything that increases mana cost is also a nerf with no upside, even if it get benefits from mutate/other evolve spell, because now we have more time to answer it with removal spell or board control.
There are some hard-to-kill minions like Tyrantus too, but you will have more time to deal with it. Like you said, it’s much better.
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
I hope they are just being cautious of going overboard.
Hoping more nerfs coming in the future. These are too mild IMO.
I'm particularly disappointed that Dragon's Pack was left untouched.
Card Nerf - Sludge Slurper
A healthy nerf but very unexpected from my side. It was an autoinclude in every shaman deck as well as mogu, so nerfing them will make shaman generally weaker.
Mogu Flashshaper - Nerf or Buff?
Hello everyone,
as you might have heard, Mogu Fleshshaper will be changed soon (in less than 24 hours to be precise), moving its cost from 7 up to 9.
To be honest I was ok with this balance change, but I've read more than one person saying that this should be a buff instead of a nerf. It is true?
Let's look at it closely.
I'll now list every single 8 and 10 drops currently available in Standard, dividing them in 3 categories: potentially game ending (you definitely highballed), good (nice upgrade) and bad (worse or not much better). In order to give this rates I'll take in consideration a scenario in which the game isn't already decided. Consider also that some minions are in the middle ground between two tiers, so you may not agree about some decisions, but you should be able to see the logic behind all.
Let's start with the 8 drops:
POTENTIALLY GAME ENDING (8): Al'Akir the Windlord, Deathwing, Mad Aspect, Mosh'Ogg Enforcer, Tirion Fordring, Walking Fountain, Zzeraku the Warped, Grommash Hellscream, Batterhead.
GOOD (20): Akali, the Rhino (it would be in a lower tier if not for the effect), Catrina Muerte, Deranged Doctor, Fel Lord Betrug, Gruul, Da Undatakah, Gilnean Royal Guard, Ironbark Protector (maybe higher), Jepetto Joybuzz, Lucentbark, Mana Giant, Murozond the Infinite, Octosari (double edged blade but still an 8/8), Princess Talanji, Splintergraft, Tess Greymane (on the edge of being lower), Tomb Warden (not lower just for the taunt), Twin Tyrant, Whirlwind Tempest (see Tess), Cauldron Elemental.
BAD (8): Arcane Devourer, Captain Hooktusk, Heroic Innkeeper, Hex Lord Malacrass, Hir'eek, the Bat, Pit Crocolisk, Splitting Festeroot (maybe higher), Tortollan Pilgrim.
In the end we have 8 really good outcomes, 20 decent ones and 8 bad ones, with the average result being a 5,5/7, with an 11% chance to have Rush (4/36), a 6% chance to have Charge or Windfury (2/36 in both cases), a 19,4% chance to have Taunt (7/36), an 11% chance to have a somewhat useful deathrattle (again 4/36) and finally a 61% chance to get more than a simple vanilla minion (22/36).
Let's do the same thing for the 10 drops too
POTENTIALLY GAME ENDING (4): Colossus of the Moon, Big Bad Archmage, Kalecgos, Deathwing.
GOOD (8): Emeriss, Jumbo Imp, Hakkar, the Soulflayer, Sea Giant, Nozari, The Boom Reaver, Living Monument, Mecha'thun.
BAD (1): King Phaoris.
This time we have 4 really good outcomes, 8 good ones and just a bad one, with a 1/12 chance to get taunt and roughly a 50% chance (5/12) to get something more than a vanilla minion, with an average result of a 7,8/8,9.
Now, from what gathered here we can draw these conclusions:
That being said, why and when do you play Mogu Fleshshaper (followed by and evolve card, of course)? The answer is simple: the faster the better. You want to get the most possible out of you mana cheating effect. That's why even Murloc builds used to run him since they didn't want to play for value/control.
Imagine this average scenario: 1 drop + totem + enemy minion + other minion (second totem, second enemy minion, lackey, Faceless Lackey shenanigans,...) will discount Mogu for 4 and thus you'll be able to play it on turn 3, with (like I said before) 28 in 36 chances to get a well statted 8 drop that your opponent will have to answer in one or two turns.
What about 9 mana Mogu? In these case, you'll have to wait at least two more turns, in order to
Given these premises, the surprise/game breaking effect of Mogu would be less impacting on the board, to the point where a +2/+2 couldn't be enough to compensate the turns spent in order to set up an appropriate table.
I'll say it again: the Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate combo's main goal is not to put as much stats as possible on the board, but do it the fastest you can, in order to have more chances for your big drop to stick.
Therefore, I can affirm that Mogu Fleshshaper's balance change is meant to be a nerf and not a buff.
TLDR: answering an 8 drop on turn 4 is much more difficult than dealing with a 10 drop on turn 6/7 - it's a nerf, not a buff.
Thanks for reading, I hope you've found this post interesting and insightful.
I'm really looking forward to read your own opinions!
Fun Warlock Brawl
Wow, this is an efficient deck. Thumbs up!
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
Overall, I'm alright with these changes. I don't think Blizzard wanted Galakrond Shaman to be unplayable (I mean, they gave Galakrond, the Tempest for free for everyone, so new and budget players should at least be able to play with something that can win), so they made changes to weaken it's early game to make it more vulnerable against aggressive decks.
I think they will definitely cut Mogu Fleshshaper and Mutate because that combo can't come out as early as turn 3 or 4 anymore and at that point why don't you just run Sea Giant instead?
The Corrupt Elementalist nerf breaks the curve of the deck a little as it will delay Dragon's Pack by a turn in general and prevents curving into Kronx Dragonhoof into Galakrond, the Tempest.
The Sludge Slurper nerf is interesting and reminds me of the EVIL Miscreant nerf: not too impactful, but also keeps the early game of their class in check. Still a powerful card as you can just still curve into the lackey while you are overloaded on turn 2.
I think the Faceless Corruptor nerf is not enough. 8/8 in stats on turn 5 or 6 is still really good and the fact that they still have rush is insanely tempo driven. It's still like a neutral Multi-Shot but with 1 or 2 4 attack bodies and not random. No decks that are running the card will cut it.
Lastly, I'm very scared that Necrium Apothecary didn't get looked at. The card creates early game high rolls pretty consistently that feels like you can only win against the Rogue is if they don't draw it. We might want to start teching weapon removal and silence into our decks if Rogue becomes the top class, which I think might be the case.
Of course, these are just my thoughts. Just giving people a perspective to think on.
MTG Arena - Theros: Beyond Death Card Spoilers December 18
I think these cards can be fun but I think you would be grasping at a deck too gimmicky to try to properly use any of these.
That being said I'm buying deathbellow warcry because that card is stupid silly in older formats.
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
Wow. The thing that amazes me isn't just the weak nerfs, but the lack of communication that came with them. It would go a long way if the blog post just spared a few more sentences to say "we hear your frustration, and this is why we think these changes are best."
I recently started playing Clash Royale, and they just had an issue where some card changes upset their player base. The company responded with a detailed, respectful blog post that was multiple pages long. It covered the development team's philosophy and reasons for the change, discussed the ways they think the change succeeded and failed, enumerated the complaints that they were hearing from the players, and then explained how they thought their new changes would address this. The post ended, of course, with a deep apology and a hope that they could win back their players' trust. And it was posted in the app, so even casual players like me would learn all about their mistake. I'm used to reading Blizzard's communications instead, and that post was eye-opening to me.
Whether it's true or not, today's response from Blizzard gives us the impression that they don't hear the frustration of their playerbase or understand the root issues. Do they realize that this is three metas in a row with progressively more broken Shaman decks? That people felt betrayed even before DoD was released last week? That this is a game of subtle interactions, and raising the cost of cards isn't a universal fix? Do they really think that Sludge Slurper is a bigger issue than Dragon's Pack, or do they just prefer a broken game to giving people dust for Epic and Legendary cards? How carefully have they considered their decision to raise the cost of a card that gives value because of its cost?
Blizzard has a lot of skilled people, and access to a lot of data that we don't see. Maybe they have good answers to all of those questions. But if they won't share those answers with us, a lot of people are going to assume the worst. They are running out of chances to restore our trust.
Really enjoying this deck, it's doing well against Shamans and Face Hunters at rank 5. Thanks!
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
Mate we need a drink in the tavern sometime. Maybe found a Ramming Speed Nerf Now! action group :P
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
I agree, but Galvadon for example has similar battlecry with adapt mechanic. I still think they should remove the battlecry part, with it's cost 6 as it is now, it would be perfect.
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
Really seems almost like the devs are more concerned with Battlegrounds now than the problems in the main game. I honestly expected heavier needs to more cards. Frankly, Shaman still has an absolute insane amount of value from a handful of cards. The double Invoke from Corrupt Elementalist should simply have been dropped to a single Invoke. A 3/3 and a 2/1 rush for 5 Mana is plenty fair. Invocation of Frost was one I honestly expected to see hit. One Mana to freeze a minion and generate a 2/1 rush minion is pretty strong. Two of these early is more than enough to trigger Dragon's Pack and provide even more crazy value. Faceless Corruptor while definitely overpowered and still incredibly strong at 4/4 is at least available to all classes, so I hate this card a little less. And Mogu Fleshshaper is still busted. There needs to be a couple more minions on the board, and they get a random 10-drop instead. That really doesn't solve the issue with the card at all, and may potentially make it worse depending on what it evolves into. Hopefully, taken together, there's enough tools in competing decks to slow Shaman down a bit, but I still think we're in for a lot of Shaman everywhere for a while. There's just absolutely too much value in the class right now. Unless they're draw is just garbage they can easily control the board in almost any matchup.
[Legend] Leprosy SMOrc Hunter
Anyone see any Shaman's lately? It's all been Hunters... (myself included)
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
I will still disenchant them... I mean if they are still in meta I will recraft them with no dust loss, but I'm not taking chances... even if we think nerf is nothing big, usually players are not all that good at predicting such stuff...
Card Nerf - Mogu Fleshshaper
Why not just have the mana cost Green when it was played at a reduced cost? Just like any stat change on a minion. It's simple and already a feature in the game that won't cause any confusion.
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
Personally, I thought they’d already hit that card by making it so I never draw the card when it’s in my deck..
Card Nerf - Faceless Corruptor
As far as I'm concerned, the 4 health is a much bigger issue than the 5 attack. It's very hard for control to clear 4 health in the midgame, making this card a lot of free tempo against control, and a strong board control tool against midrange and aggro. Both of those are still true after this change.
Card Nerf - Mogu Fleshshaper
Makes me remember boom's nerf because of the cost, but still, I don't know how much it will affect it since 10 drops are not bad (for the evolve effect) and its cost heavily is affected by the board which differs from match to match.
Card Nerf - Corrupt Elementalist
I wish they’d taken rush off the invoke cards instead... Shaman should be used to having a 2/1 sit on the board for a turn.
Increasing the mana cost slows the curve a bit, but those rush minions still do a lot of work, especially if the quest is complete.
The Gift Exchange Tavern Brawl Returns!
Or Crazed Alchemist, and come to think of it - Unwilling Sacrifice your own treasure to destroy theirs - Warlock in general.
Eternal - Promises by Firelight Spoilers Dec. 18
From what I've heard we should be seeing this expansion drop this week (I believe tomorrow, actually), but we've still got a couple of new spoilers.
Revealed by Scarlatch on Discord. This one is a token and created by something else.
Revealed by Scarlatch on Discord.
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
Honestly with this small Shaman nerfs (Sludge Slurper, seriously?) I was expecting some buffs to the weakest classes like Priest to compensate (Galakrond Priest 36% winrate). I'm sure Galakrond Shaman can drop from the current 59% winrate close to his brothers Quest and Overload at 54%. Still a really Shaman-y Tier 1 environment.
My vote is on a new set of nerfs after Holidays.
Details on Upcoming Card Nerfs & Battlegrounds Changes - December 19 Patch Notes
DID they, though? I mean: [Hearthstone Card (Faceless Corrupter) Not Found] is in 55% of all ladder decks right now with a Played Winrate of 53%, and their solution was to reduce its attack by 1. I don't know about you, but I'm keeping my 5 mana double 4/4s. And all the Shaman-specific changes aren't much better.
Really, the only upside I see here: people who have already climbed ladder for the month with Galakrond Shaman might be incentivized dust these eight cards and have some fun with other decks for the next 2 weeks before inevitably recrafting them all in January.
Mythgard - Patch 12/18/19
There was an update about the patch on Discord earlier. They're going to try for a hotfix on Friday instead of rolling it back.