I play a lot of control decks and this to me is better in a burn mage deck. Where you run a lot of low cost spells, and normally when you play them they're gone and you use cyclone to get new random ones, but with this they're back in your deck. It's an extra fireball, frost bolt, or arcane missiles, with the new spell damage cards decks like this could be a definite thing, and they would need this kind of mechanic for more burn in their deck. Mages aren't going to wait until turn ten to play this and then flamestrike, warriors aren't going to wait until turn eight to play this with brawl.... it's just....really bad that way.
A lot of these you can already know from the outside without needing to ask a dev:
Overall the implementation of the new class went well.
True it did, everyone to this day is still spamming the class.
The goal was to distinguish it from other classes, so it wouldn't feel like a hybrid of existing classes.
dapperdog says it feels more of a fusion of rogue and hunter, i disagree. I feel the class is it's own thing and exists in it's own space. The reason it feels like rogue and hunter is it takes aspects of the worst aggro things from both and makes it their own thing. (Minions that have a special effect if you've attacked for example and weapons that were probably made for board control used just to attack face(desert spear))
They were prepared for quick and frequent balance changes.
Frequent? Yes. Quick? You could argue, but let's be fair here for once. They came out with nerfs pretty quick, but cards like Eye Beam, Skull of Gul'danBattlefiend, etc, etc, were always going to be busted, and to me it feels like certain cards they knew would be too good, and released them as is anyway and were already prepared with how they would be changed already, which leads me to my next point.
In retrospect, there's no doubt the class went out too strong, but he'd rather ship it as too strong than too weak.
They would rather the class be too strong, than too weak. Because it attracts new players, it's shiny and new and the cards have to be busted to create a feel-good-to-play-the-game machine for players coming into hearthstone in order for them to stay on board. When demon hunter released and you could argue still. In wild Demon Hunters are just running all class card decks and winning with them, should this be a thing? Doesn't this show imbalance in class cards to where they don't need neutrals? I am against it personally.
The Demon Hunter Hero Power had many changes during development, even late in the process.
It would have been interesting to see a hero power that shifted in a base class instead of a hero card. Maybe something that favors control demon hunter on one side of the coin and an aggressive style on the other. But what it is now is just so limited you have to play aggro in the class. Not like that's a limited design space, since Demon Hunters have the best aggro style cards in the game.
One of the potential class mechanics during development (instead of Outcast) was a one-time effect that triggered when damaging the enemy hero.
Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development. People think outcast is something Demon Hunters need to work hard to achieve for some reason and it's just a joke. When all your cards in your deck cost 5 or less it's not hard to clear your hand or work a single card with a beneficial effect to the left side of it.
Defensive cards that provide more defense are generally pretty good. Khartut Defender is a pretty good card. Sludge Slurper was a pretty good card. [Hearthstone Card (Rottem Applebaum) Not Found] is played by some rogues who want more stall tools. This is better because it is a battlecry, so it can be used with Shudderwock or Corrupt the Waters. This card is just too flexible to not be played in some deck before it rotates to wild.
Defensive cards usually don't get their attack nerfed.
If an eight mana card in paladin removes a single minion when equality consecrate is an eight mana combo that removes all their minions exists. it's not good. You'll remove one minion then they'll kill it easily. If it was: "Whenever this minion would do damage to another minion set that minion to 3/3" It would be way better for the effect. Making it need to be removed with weapons or spells. Or punish you for playing it against a board of small minions(lackeys for instance) and a single big minion(edwin).
damn, talk about toxicity in the community. calm down yall, it's just a game
"People talking about cards released that are intentionally feel bad to play against, with no drawbacks"
"Haha chill it's just a game bro"
Because it's just a game there shouldn't be effects that change the direction from fun to "they just played a card that automatically makes me lose the game and there is nothing i can do about it."
If you come here and just read the intentional clickbait title and type salt thread, thinking you're the smartest person in the room. You might as well not do it at all.
If you want to take aim at Demon Hunter's class identity, as your thread title suggests, then go right ahead. The class' main problem in my eyes is that it is designed to be excellent at all the basics, meaning it has no serious weaknesses, and now making them kings of disruption as well is going to be problematic.
But, that's not what you are doing here. You are making assumptions about the power levels of cards before seeing them in action, and letting those assumptions fuel anger before anyone can actually verify them. Of course the reveal season is all about making assumptions and projecting that forwards, but countless times people (and often the entire community) have called cards that end up seeing no play OP, or called some of the most notorious cards in the entire game trash.
You may well be right in your assessments and do not need to give Blizzard a penny, but you can still show some patience here because if experience of reveal seasons tells us anything, it is that you cannot trust your early assessments.
I won't engage in a discussion over all the cards you bring up, but I will wade in regarding Infiltrator Lilian to make a point. Your comparison to Piloted Shredder is appropriate, so let's break down that comparison and leave Kobold Barbarian out of it.
The first body is a 4/2 stealth vs a 4/3 mech. Which of these is better? Neither objectively, but most often I would take Lilian as it usually won't get caught in AoE crossfire unless you over-commit, and HS is a game which benefits the attacker more than the defender, so having more control on that with stealth is a significant plus point.
The mech tag can matter, but not much in rogue and certainly not in standard at the moment.
Meanwhile rogue wants things with stealth at the moment, so that's and extra plus.
What about the deathrattle: is a 4/2 instant random attack better than a random 2-drop? Again there is no objectively correct answer, but again I would side with Lilian here. Not only is 4/2 higher than average stats on a 2-drop, but similarly to stealth it denies your opponent the choice of how to deal with it before it attacks. Sure the attack won't always be optimal, but look at it this way: the worst it can do is run into the thing that your opponent would choose to trade into it with anyway.
So all put together, Infiltrator Lilian is usually better than Piloted Shredder on all fronts. At the very worst then it is a solid card, and nowhere near the pits in which Kobold Librarian lives.
You could also compare it to a Boom Bot, with the deathrattle always dealing 4 damage and possibly leaving a body behind too. Because the Boom Bot isn't a collectible card it is silly to read much into this, but keep in mind Boom Bots were always taken seriously and made Dr. Boom the first infamous card for good reason.
Okay, but you asked for this. Ace Hunter Kreen, is undoubtedly better than Houndmaster Shaw in demon hunter where all your minions are cheap and have high stats. It is intended to where you are on board already(something easy to do as demon hunter) and stay there unless your opponent is running a spell, or rush minion, or weapon, to remove the minion from your board. Houndmaster Shaw helped a class like hunter, whose cards were not busted like demon hunters with seizing the board advantage since they have no other real way of controlling the board other than minions.
"Glide and Star [Hearthstone Card (Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly." This one just made me laugh not gonna lie. You knew i was exaggerating but not for these apparently. But i'll still cover them just the same Glide is still bullshit because it makes control, who is supposed to be about keeping card advantage against aggro, regret that just like Divine Favor did, which they hall of famed for that reason. But they've been removing a lot of control tools for a while(Northshire Cleric, Vanish, making Equality, cost 4 because it was being abused in an aggro deck, instead of nerfing the actual cards that made that aggro deck work, etc etc.) Selina i don't think is as bad as glide is. But i don't play a lot of combo decks where you rely on reducing the price of one card in your hand, and the decks i do(gonk) i run 2 minions to reduce the cost of it anyway to cover my bases and help with reducing gonk in the first place. AKA if i'm playing against a demon hunter and i played my Imprisoned Satyr and it reduced my gonk or my faceless by five and my gonk or faceless was shuffled i had another satyr to reduce it again. Since it's a legendary it's not an effect i would have to worry about all game. But glide isn't a legendary effect.
Shan'do Wildclaw Blizzard has been trying to make beast druid work for a long time. It's someone on the team's favorite archetype and i think someone should walk up to them and give them the mean girls talk:
"Stop trying to make beast druid happen, it's not going to happen."
Mozaki, Master Duelist Is a card i admit i could be sleeping on, in the right deck it could be better malygos, but it won't be. Mage is too busy playing random bullshit to make something like that happen. If you play it and leave it on the board hoping it'll be there next turn for your combo it won't be.
Infiltrator Lilian Is just bad. I don't know if you remember, but Piloted Shredder was a good card and Kobold Barbarian was not. I could argue kobold smash is better than this legendary card. It has more health, it's cheaper, and it's an actual threat when you have it on board since no one knows where the attack will go. With lilian sure the attack is faster, but it can just hit something with two attack twice and die making it useless. As useful as she is in the scholomance instance itself, good flavor blizzard.
Are you one of the random people that think Ceremonial Maul is somehow tech for big warrior. Because it's not.
In closing i like where demon hunter is right now, i think the class is barely OP still. And is fine to play against. The problem is the design space is clearly the same as the old busted demon hunter cards where they don't playtest and we're back to square one with more cards that aren't fun to play against, and just auto win when you play them, because even though you mulligan an AOE against the aggro-centric class, specifically so you'll have it when you need it, they shuffled it away into your deck where you'll never see it again on turn four/five.
I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.
I think they're just idiots.
Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.
Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver
Ace Hunter Kreen is nothing at all like Houndmaster Shaw. Glide and [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly. Shan'do Wildclaw is not a strictly worse Keleseth, it just has a different deckbuilding requirement. Mozaki, Master Duelist is a million times better than Dalaran Aspirant. Your description of Infiltrator Lilian is kind of odd since a Piloted shredder that summoned a 4/4 is actually pretty good, and Lilian is better than that since she also has stealth. And I think it is a bit too early to judge Rattlegore since they might introduce more Big Warrior support this set.
Stop exaggerating just to make things sound worse then they are. Demon Hunter has been nerfed several times and I don't think we need more nerfs yet. And I doubt having [Hearthstone Card (Star Student Selina) Not Found] shuffle a single one of your cards into your deck will be the end of the world. Glide may be a problem, but no Demon Hunter cards revealed so far strongly suggests that they will be an insanely power super OP unstoppable force.
I don't think they're intentionally releasing broken cards.
I think they're just idiots.
Just wait out the first weeks after you're done testing half-baked theorcrafts. DH will get yet another nerf probably almost instantly. They have nothing to gain from making a single class the absolute best, even if they attract new players with it. At best those players will stay for 2 more expansions until they get frustrated.
Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver
Shiny new busted cards to make new players want to play hearthstone, while at the same time making long time players hate playing hearthstone. IDK maybe they think the people coming in will be more than the people leaving, but negativity bias exists for a reason. People remember when they get shit on over and over by DH more than they'll remember winning against them. I will not play this game when the expansion drops. I'm not paying activision for this shit. And i'm not going to play until this class gets fixed. And hopefully others are just like me to make activision finally stop releasing busted cards that are intended to be busted and not fun to play against.
"We can give DH all this disruption that's unfair and not fun to play against because they can get one card from their deck haha, bliz we're geniuses!"
how do you play around it? It gives the Demon Hunter info on your hand and it just burns one of your cards for no cost. How does this ever backfire unless you somehow manage to have 3 useless cards in hand?
same way you play around lazul, have a lot of cards in hand
I am fine with this one. It removes a single targetted card from an opponent's hand and has a chance to whiff or your opponent playing around it. Glide is bullshit, because there is no way to play around it than, "Just waste all your cards lol"
I play a lot of control decks and this to me is better in a burn mage deck. Where you run a lot of low cost spells, and normally when you play them they're gone and you use cyclone to get new random ones, but with this they're back in your deck. It's an extra fireball, frost bolt, or arcane missiles, with the new spell damage cards decks like this could be a definite thing, and they would need this kind of mechanic for more burn in their deck. Mages aren't going to wait until turn ten to play this and then flamestrike, warriors aren't going to wait until turn eight to play this with brawl.... it's just....really bad that way.
A lot of these you can already know from the outside without needing to ask a dev:
Overall the implementation of the new class went well.
True it did, everyone to this day is still spamming the class.
The goal was to distinguish it from other classes, so it wouldn't feel like a hybrid of existing classes.
dapperdog says it feels more of a fusion of rogue and hunter, i disagree. I feel the class is it's own thing and exists in it's own space. The reason it feels like rogue and hunter is it takes aspects of the worst aggro things from both and makes it their own thing. (Minions that have a special effect if you've attacked for example and weapons that were probably made for board control used just to attack face(desert spear))
They were prepared for quick and frequent balance changes.
Frequent? Yes. Quick? You could argue, but let's be fair here for once. They came out with nerfs pretty quick, but cards like Eye Beam, Skull of Gul'dan Battlefiend, etc, etc, were always going to be busted, and to me it feels like certain cards they knew would be too good, and released them as is anyway and were already prepared with how they would be changed already, which leads me to my next point.
In retrospect, there's no doubt the class went out too strong, but he'd rather ship it as too strong than too weak.
They would rather the class be too strong, than too weak. Because it attracts new players, it's shiny and new and the cards have to be busted to create a feel-good-to-play-the-game machine for players coming into hearthstone in order for them to stay on board. When demon hunter released and you could argue still. In wild Demon Hunters are just running all class card decks and winning with them, should this be a thing? Doesn't this show imbalance in class cards to where they don't need neutrals? I am against it personally.
The Demon Hunter Hero Power had many changes during development, even late in the process.
It would have been interesting to see a hero power that shifted in a base class instead of a hero card. Maybe something that favors control demon hunter on one side of the coin and an aggressive style on the other. But what it is now is just so limited you have to play aggro in the class. Not like that's a limited design space, since Demon Hunters have the best aggro style cards in the game.
One of the potential class mechanics during development (instead of Outcast) was a one-time effect that triggered when damaging the enemy hero.
Another thing pointing to Demon Hunter being based around being a straight out aggro style class since development. People think outcast is something Demon Hunters need to work hard to achieve for some reason and it's just a joke. When all your cards in your deck cost 5 or less it's not hard to clear your hand or work a single card with a beneficial effect to the left side of it.
It's only 1+ because of new innervate lmao, so obvious.
Busted with glide, but it won't be played with glide, since demon hunters want to win before turn 5 let alone turns 7 or 10.
Might replace faceless with this in my gonk druid deck. Currently the combo is reduce Gonk, the Raptor or Faceless Manipulator by 5 with Imprisoned Satyr and then go off, but with this you can play:
Gonk-->Lightning Bloom/Biology Project-->Shan'do Wildclaw-->Floop's Glorious Gloop-->Claw and just kill things right away without wasting time for satyrs anymore. It's odd too so it fits into my odd gonk druid deck. hmmm might try this one out.
Defensive cards usually don't get their attack nerfed.
deckbuilder.
If an eight mana card in paladin removes a single minion when equality consecrate is an eight mana combo that removes all their minions exists. it's not good. You'll remove one minion then they'll kill it easily. If it was: "Whenever this minion would do damage to another minion set that minion to 3/3" It would be way better for the effect. Making it need to be removed with weapons or spells. Or punish you for playing it against a board of small minions(lackeys for instance) and a single big minion(edwin).
"People talking about cards released that are intentionally feel bad to play against, with no drawbacks"
"Haha chill it's just a game bro"
Because it's just a game there shouldn't be effects that change the direction from fun to "they just played a card that automatically makes me lose the game and there is nothing i can do about it."
If you come here and just read the intentional clickbait title and type salt thread, thinking you're the smartest person in the room. You might as well not do it at all.
Even more Convincing Infiltrators...................................
Then why didnt people play Kaboom Bot
Okay, but you asked for this. Ace Hunter Kreen, is undoubtedly better than Houndmaster Shaw in demon hunter where all your minions are cheap and have high stats. It is intended to where you are on board already(something easy to do as demon hunter) and stay there unless your opponent is running a spell, or rush minion, or weapon, to remove the minion from your board. Houndmaster Shaw helped a class like hunter, whose cards were not busted like demon hunters with seizing the board advantage since they have no other real way of controlling the board other than minions.
"Glide and Star [Hearthstone Card (Student Selina) Not Found] don't send cards to the bottom of the deck, they shuffle them in randomly." This one just made me laugh not gonna lie. You knew i was exaggerating but not for these apparently. But i'll still cover them just the same Glide is still bullshit because it makes control, who is supposed to be about keeping card advantage against aggro, regret that just like Divine Favor did, which they hall of famed for that reason. But they've been removing a lot of control tools for a while(Northshire Cleric, Vanish, making Equality, cost 4 because it was being abused in an aggro deck, instead of nerfing the actual cards that made that aggro deck work, etc etc.) Selina i don't think is as bad as glide is. But i don't play a lot of combo decks where you rely on reducing the price of one card in your hand, and the decks i do(gonk) i run 2 minions to reduce the cost of it anyway to cover my bases and help with reducing gonk in the first place. AKA if i'm playing against a demon hunter and i played my Imprisoned Satyr and it reduced my gonk or my faceless by five and my gonk or faceless was shuffled i had another satyr to reduce it again. Since it's a legendary it's not an effect i would have to worry about all game. But glide isn't a legendary effect.
Shan'do Wildclaw Blizzard has been trying to make beast druid work for a long time. It's someone on the team's favorite archetype and i think someone should walk up to them and give them the mean girls talk:
"Stop trying to make beast druid happen, it's not going to happen."
Mozaki, Master Duelist Is a card i admit i could be sleeping on, in the right deck it could be better malygos, but it won't be. Mage is too busy playing random bullshit to make something like that happen. If you play it and leave it on the board hoping it'll be there next turn for your combo it won't be.
Infiltrator Lilian Is just bad. I don't know if you remember, but Piloted Shredder was a good card and Kobold Barbarian was not. I could argue kobold smash is better than this legendary card. It has more health, it's cheaper, and it's an actual threat when you have it on board since no one knows where the attack will go. With lilian sure the attack is faster, but it can just hit something with two attack twice and die making it useless. As useful as she is in the scholomance instance itself, good flavor blizzard.
Are you one of the random people that think Ceremonial Maul is somehow tech for big warrior. Because it's not.
In closing i like where demon hunter is right now, i think the class is barely OP still. And is fine to play against. The problem is the design space is clearly the same as the old busted demon hunter cards where they don't playtest and we're back to square one with more cards that aren't fun to play against, and just auto win when you play them, because even though you mulligan an AOE against the aggro-centric class, specifically so you'll have it when you need it, they shuffled it away into your deck where you'll never see it again on turn four/five.
Every demon hunter card in this set so far is so far above every other card released. Even the legendary cards are lackluster for every class but demon hunter. Demon hunter gets better houndmaster shaw. warrior/rogue get captain greenskin. Demon hunter gets send a card to the bottom of your opponent's deck druid/hunter gets worse keleseth. And those are the power dual class legendaries. The normal ones are worse. Mage gets Dalaran Aspirant, Rogue gets worse Piloted Shredder that always summons Kobold Barbarian. Willow for warlock is only good in wild and rattlegore is a meme for a big style of a class that doesn't even exist in wild with Woecleaver
Shiny new busted cards to make new players want to play hearthstone, while at the same time making long time players hate playing hearthstone. IDK maybe they think the people coming in will be more than the people leaving, but negativity bias exists for a reason. People remember when they get shit on over and over by DH more than they'll remember winning against them. I will not play this game when the expansion drops. I'm not paying activision for this shit. And i'm not going to play until this class gets fixed. And hopefully others are just like me to make activision finally stop releasing busted cards that are intended to be busted and not fun to play against.
Wow a good card for a class other than demon hunter. I'm actually surprised.
I can see blizzard's smooth brain logic now:
"We can give DH all this disruption that's unfair and not fun to play against because they can get one card from their deck haha, bliz we're geniuses!"
same way you play around lazul, have a lot of cards in hand
I am fine with this one. It removes a single targetted card from an opponent's hand and has a chance to whiff or your opponent playing around it. Glide is bullshit, because there is no way to play around it than, "Just waste all your cards lol"