I think its worth mentioning why reddit think this deck is bad now, and it wasn't the nerf to azir or inspiring commander or whatever that card is called.
- it was the introduction of pokey stick, a common play used to be to bounce and replay your elusive into a big dmg turn, it might of cost one more mana but you had tempo and traded even on cards. Now the play trades negative.on cards.
- bounce spamming your own units is no longer a valid way to play this deck outside of the rally effect where you push dmg, now if you want you could play nopify but that doesn't help you dodge thermos and shock blasts or landmark avalanches etc.
- so once again push the deck into the midrange and you'll have a better time basically run it like Mogwai was running MF Azir, because again if you dont want to take meme-competitive decks from me take then from him.
So I wanted to see real quick if the archetype is as bad as all the complaints make it seem.
The answer is no its still great it's not the aggro monster it used to be and that's good because it's a combo deck.
So I just teched in shifting sands this is removal, and levels Azir, and provides aggro/blockers to devalue counter swings.
Great card not using it for this archetype is wrong, and the second thing is chimera it devalues counter swings and prevents you from getting raced down.
So yeah Azir Irelia still a great combo deck as long as you aren't a meta slave and push it a bit into the sustained midrange space.
So quick run down, cycling referring to every time a card draws back into itself, whether it is a creature or spell.
Tutoring is when a card gives you a specific card you are looking for.
With that let's take a look at Ferros Financier and how tutoring itself is the problem more so than bandlewood specifically. Like you can run Lux Heimer instead of Heimer Jayce and you dont even miss bandle.
1. It can grab ruination (board clear)
2. It can grab reckoning (board clear)
3. It can grab "mega avalanche" (board clear)
4. It can grab progress day (oh my 2 mana tutor just drew me 3 how fun and balanced
5. It can grab shock blast (board clear/burn)
6. It can grab glorious revolution (luuuulz this one's for you guys because tutoring for it is 100 times better than main decking because it's a free card) and you get the blocker
7. It can grab summon two 3/3s and summon two 3/2s that buff on attack, and summon two 4/4 s (hey my two mana card gave me massive free board presence)
8. It can grab single target removal like harpoon, it can basically do anything
All of this for two mana, now how is this different from targon, A you have to spend 3 mana, and invoke cards are actually kinda bad now without Asol to make them free.
Also having a free blocker on 2 is game changing against aggro trust me, it's why people hate love on telescope on conchologist and Shadow dude, it's like yes you get a free card, aaaaand you answer your opponents aggro play aaaaand you get to tutor what you want.
All of this leads to the fact that tutors aren't rng so much as they are a consistently game winning nuisance that is spreading across the game region by region and I think it's not stopping anytime soon.
Umm if you say so. I don't need to be because A its a card game and B you guys are quite bad...like is this you guys on reddit spouting horrible ideas? I wouldn't be surprised.
Burst spells are bad dur, let's bring back Azir Irelia...nevermind the fact that the game is essentially divided into hyper aggro vs infinite cycling decks.
Maybe if you spent less time trolling and more time deck crafting, playing the game, and not net decking I would be more.interested in what was being said if it was A intelligible and B constructive and C actually engaging with the material.
Thaliyah Malphite midrange where you duplicate rock bears (old deck)
And Zigs bandle city aggro where it's not even a landmark deck?
The meme stuff you guys come up with is so cute please tell me more about your glorious revolution decks.
Honestly, the deck works amazing if you arent.bad only gets hard countered by darkness.
Again you're presenting board states that force trades, and that equals slays.
Nasus comes down on 6 as a 8/8 or 9/9 usually which let's you hard counter gangplank plays.
So let's go over the decks to beat, basically anything that comes out swinging early and transitions to a late game.
So thats only all of the best decks. Gangplan Sejuani, every non darkness bandle deck, every Zed Poppy deck, every burn deck, every Jayce deck, like everything Cycles these days so thats easy slays.
Like dont get me wrong I'm a great player who challenges himself with off meta decks he builds himself, but I also really understand counter brewing.
The best decks right now pivot from early game to end game effectively without being to dependent on individual game plans.
Lurk can be agressive but it has big overwhelmers.
Jayce acts like a spell control deck but has insane late game swings.
Bandle tree plays a bunch of agressive dudes and then otk's you out of nowhere.
Following that trend is my new landmark aggro - syke slay control deck.
Plays very scary big dudes in the midrange lots of 5/3 and 5/4 and 3/4 3/3 type of stat lines.
But all of that is a ruse for you to trade your cycle creatures into them and spend spells to finish them off.
Now rampaging baccai is active he kills heimer for free, we have rite of arcane to kill him, and minimorph if things get out of hand. After all that plays out then - then we play a big Nasus good luck out valuing that every game.
And honestly sometimes you just win with the landmark stuff, it happens you burn em down with zigs, or your instant 3 body play for 4 mana can be too much for some decks to deal with.
Baccai sandspinner is a tech choice I value it slightly higher than gifts for Renekton ;) if you aren't just playing it for the Sivir value.
Basically just says all the things I was saying months ago.
How infinite cycling limits deck variety, and how having decks filled with independent value generators limits decks identity
Gives the example that one of the best Jayce decks was obviously gonna be in bandle, I knew that we all knew that.
However, with the release of Jayce I've actually become hopeful that Riot will release Champs and cards that are on par value wise.
Shurima needs more landmark value, cards like the 3/1 that gives you dirt is sooooo bad into cycles as to essentially be -1 card in practice.
Ionia and Freijord need more control tools to remain viable.
Shadow is probably fine , just due to the event love they've gotten they have a lot of spell variety, I also think targon is fine, and so is Demacia and Noxious for what they do.
So again it's not that Bandle city is objectively op and better than everyone else, it's that they are as good if not better in every single style of deck ever imagined.
TLDR: It's good Jayce fixed spell control and now there is finally a solid tier 2 answer to all the hyper agressive decks
Legends of Runterra used to be a game defined by just playing your hard to remove Champs and swinging.
Zed into poppy, gangplak into Sejuani, midrange stuff into an Asol or a Sion.
But finally it does feel like the blindly develop recipe has been flipped on its head a bit. Like in terms of winrates aggro will always be top of the tier lists because it easier to grind ladder and for streamers to win consecutively to hit masters...but when decks are viewed on a optimal play scale it gets a lot more complicated.
For example a case study:
Opponent plays Zed after banking mana followed by a poppy, I play my factory into a shock blast, they counter with twin to save 1 thing, but I can still potentially mystic or Thermo or whatever thanks to factory.
It used to be no matter what you did you would loose this play scenario 75% of the time and its why Zed Poppy was the number 1 deck.
Now it's not as cut and dry, and reactive players can finally "play the game" on an even scale without having to rely on cycling tools and a parade of chump blockers...I don't like playing that way because it's no different than blindly developing as aggro.
In summary they didn't kill any of the brain dead auto win stuff, but shook things up enough so mtg players can actually enjoy the game and do a little bit of that "no you" play style if they want to.
------------------
I already suspect there are gonna be some players that are salty that aggro advantage has gone from auto win, to just winning more and thats too damn bad. This expansion was absolutely necessary for the long term health and viability of the game on a competitive scale and it should make future tournaments a lot more fun and unpredictable to watch.
I've been trying to build an actually good Kindred deck since his release and have probably failed a dozen or so times.
But man I gotta say this deck is spicey, combining the strengths of veigar Senna, with undying vulnerable decks to create something will actually see Kindred getting to a 9/9 guaranteed.
So hard mull for like undying and veigard usually, pirate girl is nice on 2 a defensive counter swing play and ship Kind of works similarly on turn 4 but you drag with undying.
Really good, I think MOG would get a kick out of this one.
No I'm not saying I don't understand the line of play, and I've even seen it all of...once.
Its just terrible.
Like any deck that says I need to hard cast two 10 mana spells before I can win is bad.
Like feel the rush is the closest to a semi competitive "meme" card because it is literally just 12 mana I win most of the time.
You can run it as a cheeky 1 of in Sejuani midrange or as a 3 of in a hard ramp list.
--------------
But I have to say this whole conversation has made me realize how out of the realm of what people are actually playing, and how decks are actually built, and just like the universe maybe?
Wait are you guys just meme players, to be talking about playing 2 glorious evolutions into infinite everglades stalkers like that's a real competitive thing?
....................
Anyways based on my experimentation these are the 3 best Jayce decks in my experience.
1. Jayce Lux Specializes in tempo, removal and big swings.
2. Heimer tribal, specializes in infinite board control via cycling/board presence
3. Karma Jayce, mega control. Specializes in infinite spell value.
Meme decks
1. Frosty Jayce you can double winters breath...aaaaaand that's kinda it
2. Poppy Jayce runs the infinite cycling pkg I hate so much with Poppy....yuuuup
3. Shadow Jayce an Asian player did well with this essentially ledros control
4. Tf Jayce basically you use Harpoon for an easy fast speed level
Overall - Jayce I believe is Riots attempt at designing a Poppy like control champion...he's kind of good with everything but has enough synergy and build around cost to make him far less obnoxious and "easy mode"
So the biggest thing holding back Karma Ezreal was how combo dependent the deck was and reliant on lining up all the pieces to win.
But with Jayce he can win games on his own, and Ezreal can win games on his own, and together they super win games.
Pretty solid control package that also allows you to deny other jayce decks While removing their cycling pieces essentially for free with eye and ezreal.
The only change I'm making is Karma Jayce instead of Ezreal Jayce
Plays better into the bandlewood mirror where it's just like hey take all the time you need, my deck has infinite spell value to kill you, and you just have infinite board value which we don't really care about.
Just gonna repurpose this topic to discuss the meta stats for the new Jayce decks, and do a little sidebar for Swims entries.
Basically Jayce Heimer which I view to be an absolutely cracked op deck has an abysmal 50% winrate a lot of that probably has to do with the inclusion of the win more tech tribal card, when you could literally just run stress test and win more against open attacks.
Jayce Lux does better let's call it 53-55% it's basically the version Mogwai showed off...only changes I make personally to my list is I looooove progress day on Jayce Lux. Getting the burst beam plus the 3 mana discount and the draw and future discounts is big I find for mirrors, and every other matchup.
But the real interesting thing, is that swim will not run this decks at all and basically prefers solo Lux or solo Jayce with just a cycling package all the way down to shell girl on 6 and the obvious 4 mana champ inclusion I will not mention because we are all sick of her.
Finally the only Jayce list to put up real competitive numbers is this card pile here:
I'm 90% certain that this deck wins in the same way go hard used to win.
Elise generates a bunch of pain in the butt bodies, and then you can just go for your slow win con, Jayce into double beam, and sure ledros too why not it basically stops heimer from ever winning.
New expansion has been out for 5 minuites and the optimal Jayce deck is already duplicate conchologist...want to know why because Champs don't matter, cards don't matter, turn order and plays don't matter...answers.dont matter...only cycling matters.
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I was practicly begging for a patch to tone down the cycling power in the game and we just got more of it...like how clueless can you get. Infinite card advantage with board presence in a card game is baaaaaaad
In a broader sense cycling had classically referred to any creature body that draws 1. But in Runeterra cycling is infinitely better because it's actually a cheap body and a tutor 1.
Also that body is not under-stated
Now you could say it's not a tutor because there's hearthstone r and g but unfortunately the card pool is too small to make that true.
Here's an example will you always hit equinox off a spacey sketches? No but you will hit it the second time you play most likely.
Now add this principle to bandlewood what are the chances they hit the 5 mana sled puffball or the 6 mana scout. Very high, and this is after you've had to deal with 3 poppies, and his buffed board. That's the power of tutors, and that's why just add Bandlewood is practically a meme at this point.
This is the meme take champ A add bandlewood tutors/cycling creatures, add poppy win games. Now you could argue it needs minimorph and stress test etc. But those are just tech choices, the infinite tutor pkg plus Poppy is so universal and so strong it can go with anything.
Like you can literally play the AI and you'll be like derp de derp whatever and then you hit infinite cycling and it's like wow that's literally the worst card choices and it's still better then everything else.
Gonna keep it real short, good news we get more Lux support, bad news they added more cycling at 2 mana.
We are basically in a situation where every single competitive archetype will need to have 2 and 3 mana cycling solutions or be soooo fast and agressive as to not care.
So it doesn't really matter if your 2/2 steals a card from your opponent, generated a 6 mana spell, creates more creatures, or invokes as long as you're trading on board and not loosing cards.
I kinda hate this from a long term growth perspective...like is Ionia gonna start getting 2/2's that generate cheap spells for Lee Sin oh wait they have Zoe and that still isn't good enough because they need like 10 more cards that do the same thing.
If I sound salty it's because I love this game, I love the Champs, I love the turn passing, I love the game flow...and infinite cycling destroys all of that.
It gets to the point where leveling Champs as part of a "quest" doesn't matter only wincons matter and infinite card advantage.
Yeah, so pretty much every game is a 20 minuite drag out value war.
Bandlewood is popular you can run it with Heimer or Swian or Poppy or anything else.
The only thing that matters is that you maintain infinite card advantage until you hit your finisher, or maybe you don't and it doesn't matter.
Targon does this pretty well also, and so does shadow. Not a lot else to say, like even overwhelm decks and aggro decks rely heavily on cycling now.
Using cards like lecturing yordle or the 7 mana shurima card, so how does everyone feel is this fun?
Like now that I understand what the game is I can patience my way through a handful of games a day by running rebel lists but thats about it.
It all feels exceptionally slow...and rather redundant, like what deck are you running? Who cares as long as it's 50 - 80% cycling...woo good times.
Then there's obviously the rally Zed decks which are the only lists fast enough to contend with what people are playing.
I really hope the next expansion includes less cycling and more cheap aoe or box style affected, or something like cyndervines from magic that punishes opponents from playing too greedy.
I just wanted to share the new #1 Europe deck, not because I'm gonna play it but it seems well positioned to punish all the curvestone decks out there right now aka all of them.
Overwhelm could be the answer that stops people from blindly developing small threats and asking hey what is my opponent doing...because there isn't enough of that going on right now
Like even shadow isles a region that used to be defined by hold up vengeance to punish play, is now cycle into removal everytime all the time...we see that with a lot of decks where they are almost becoming "mobile friendly" autopilot nonsense.
No its just pretty much every deck doesn't actually really doooo anything.
Burn just plays a bunch of stuff and gets lethal.
Shadow cycles a bunch of removal into their hand.
Poppy Zed gives Zed elusive.
Like it really is just the least interesting most mind numbing type of strategic gaming availible.
Its no wow didn't see that coming...it's more wow I know your next 8 plays before the game starts...congrats you did thr thing you were obviously gonna do how droll.
And yes this does extend to Champs primarily being used as a finisher stick as opposed to anything interesting beyond that.
If you want to really narrow down what has stopped Legends from reaching the wide spread appeal of other CCG's its that there is no room for non linear plays within set deck lists.
Like dont get me wrong I have never played a net deck in my life, but if I have to watch you play them.over and over at least there can be room for some surprises.
This is the one area where mtg has the advantage, one instant spells being cheap, counter spells and removal cost like 1 or 2 mana, so your opponent gets punished for developing blindly as opposed to you getting punished for not developing blindly.
There's a pretty big difference there in that dynamic, where smart and surprising plays win and result in ranks, as opposed to optimal mind numbing.plays resulting in ranks. One is poker and the other is black jack.
Lol that was fast, just a lot of turbo strategies, I can't even tell the last time I saw someone like actually try to play a game out, do synergies, or level Champs.
Oh well this ain't mtg that's for sure...thing like mana banking the excessive cost of removal, and rallies pretty much negate any strategy that doesn't win in 5 turns.
Really is mind numbing...
Its like 3/4 of your deck does not matter at all, you're just pushing soooo hard for the one straight line of linear play
Wake me up for the next balance patch, expansion, or when Swim starts giving a damn again...zzzzzzz
I think its worth mentioning why reddit think this deck is bad now, and it wasn't the nerf to azir or inspiring commander or whatever that card is called.
- it was the introduction of pokey stick, a common play used to be to bounce and replay your elusive into a big dmg turn, it might of cost one more mana but you had tempo and traded even on cards. Now the play trades negative.on cards.
- bounce spamming your own units is no longer a valid way to play this deck outside of the rally effect where you push dmg, now if you want you could play nopify but that doesn't help you dodge thermos and shock blasts or landmark avalanches etc.
- so once again push the deck into the midrange and you'll have a better time basically run it like Mogwai was running MF Azir, because again if you dont want to take meme-competitive decks from me take then from him.
So I wanted to see real quick if the archetype is as bad as all the complaints make it seem.
The answer is no its still great it's not the aggro monster it used to be and that's good because it's a combo deck.
So I just teched in shifting sands this is removal, and levels Azir, and provides aggro/blockers to devalue counter swings.
Great card not using it for this archetype is wrong, and the second thing is chimera it devalues counter swings and prevents you from getting raced down.
So yeah Azir Irelia still a great combo deck as long as you aren't a meta slave and push it a bit into the sustained midrange space.
So quick run down, cycling referring to every time a card draws back into itself, whether it is a creature or spell.
Tutoring is when a card gives you a specific card you are looking for.
With that let's take a look at Ferros Financier and how tutoring itself is the problem more so than bandlewood specifically. Like you can run Lux Heimer instead of Heimer Jayce and you dont even miss bandle.
1. It can grab ruination (board clear)
2. It can grab reckoning (board clear)
3. It can grab "mega avalanche" (board clear)
4. It can grab progress day (oh my 2 mana tutor just drew me 3 how fun and balanced
5. It can grab shock blast (board clear/burn)
6. It can grab glorious revolution (luuuulz this one's for you guys because tutoring for it is 100 times better than main decking because it's a free card) and you get the blocker
7. It can grab summon two 3/3s and summon two 3/2s that buff on attack, and summon two 4/4 s (hey my two mana card gave me massive free board presence)
8. It can grab single target removal like harpoon, it can basically do anything
All of this for two mana, now how is this different from targon, A you have to spend 3 mana, and invoke cards are actually kinda bad now without Asol to make them free.
Also having a free blocker on 2 is game changing against aggro trust me, it's why people hate love on telescope on conchologist and Shadow dude, it's like yes you get a free card, aaaaand you answer your opponents aggro play aaaaand you get to tutor what you want.
All of this leads to the fact that tutors aren't rng so much as they are a consistently game winning nuisance that is spreading across the game region by region and I think it's not stopping anytime soon.
Umm if you say so. I don't need to be because A its a card game and B you guys are quite bad...like is this you guys on reddit spouting horrible ideas? I wouldn't be surprised.
https://youtu.be/yiKFXNgViCA
Burst spells are bad dur, let's bring back Azir Irelia...nevermind the fact that the game is essentially divided into hyper aggro vs infinite cycling decks.
Maybe if you spent less time trolling and more time deck crafting, playing the game, and not net decking I would be more.interested in what was being said if it was A intelligible and B constructive and C actually engaging with the material.
Hahaha what is Zigs Thailiyah?
Thaliyah Malphite midrange where you duplicate rock bears (old deck)
And Zigs bandle city aggro where it's not even a landmark deck?
The meme stuff you guys come up with is so cute please tell me more about your glorious revolution decks.
Honestly, the deck works amazing if you arent.bad only gets hard countered by darkness.
Again you're presenting board states that force trades, and that equals slays.
Nasus comes down on 6 as a 8/8 or 9/9 usually which let's you hard counter gangplank plays.
So let's go over the decks to beat, basically anything that comes out swinging early and transitions to a late game.
So thats only all of the best decks. Gangplan Sejuani, every non darkness bandle deck, every Zed Poppy deck, every burn deck, every Jayce deck, like everything Cycles these days so thats easy slays.
Like dont get me wrong I'm a great player who challenges himself with off meta decks he builds himself, but I also really understand counter brewing.
While you guys either netdeck, or meme.
The best decks right now pivot from early game to end game effectively without being to dependent on individual game plans.
Lurk can be agressive but it has big overwhelmers.
Jayce acts like a spell control deck but has insane late game swings.
Bandle tree plays a bunch of agressive dudes and then otk's you out of nowhere.
Following that trend is my new landmark aggro - syke slay control deck.
Plays very scary big dudes in the midrange lots of 5/3 and 5/4 and 3/4 3/3 type of stat lines.
But all of that is a ruse for you to trade your cycle creatures into them and spend spells to finish them off.
Now rampaging baccai is active he kills heimer for free, we have rite of arcane to kill him, and minimorph if things get out of hand. After all that plays out then - then we play a big Nasus good luck out valuing that every game.
And honestly sometimes you just win with the landmark stuff, it happens you burn em down with zigs, or your instant 3 body play for 4 mana can be too much for some decks to deal with.
Baccai sandspinner is a tech choice I value it slightly higher than gifts for Renekton ;) if you aren't just playing it for the Sivir value.
https://youtu.be/_TWFZuq3UCQ
Basically just says all the things I was saying months ago.
How infinite cycling limits deck variety, and how having decks filled with independent value generators limits decks identity
Gives the example that one of the best Jayce decks was obviously gonna be in bandle, I knew that we all knew that.
However, with the release of Jayce I've actually become hopeful that Riot will release Champs and cards that are on par value wise.
Shurima needs more landmark value, cards like the 3/1 that gives you dirt is sooooo bad into cycles as to essentially be -1 card in practice.
Ionia and Freijord need more control tools to remain viable.
Shadow is probably fine , just due to the event love they've gotten they have a lot of spell variety, I also think targon is fine, and so is Demacia and Noxious for what they do.
So again it's not that Bandle city is objectively op and better than everyone else, it's that they are as good if not better in every single style of deck ever imagined.
TLDR: It's good Jayce fixed spell control and now there is finally a solid tier 2 answer to all the hyper agressive decks
Legends of Runterra used to be a game defined by just playing your hard to remove Champs and swinging.
Zed into poppy, gangplak into Sejuani, midrange stuff into an Asol or a Sion.
But finally it does feel like the blindly develop recipe has been flipped on its head a bit. Like in terms of winrates aggro will always be top of the tier lists because it easier to grind ladder and for streamers to win consecutively to hit masters...but when decks are viewed on a optimal play scale it gets a lot more complicated.
For example a case study:
Opponent plays Zed after banking mana followed by a poppy, I play my factory into a shock blast, they counter with twin to save 1 thing, but I can still potentially mystic or Thermo or whatever thanks to factory.
It used to be no matter what you did you would loose this play scenario 75% of the time and its why Zed Poppy was the number 1 deck.
Now it's not as cut and dry, and reactive players can finally "play the game" on an even scale without having to rely on cycling tools and a parade of chump blockers...I don't like playing that way because it's no different than blindly developing as aggro.
In summary they didn't kill any of the brain dead auto win stuff, but shook things up enough so mtg players can actually enjoy the game and do a little bit of that "no you" play style if they want to.
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I already suspect there are gonna be some players that are salty that aggro advantage has gone from auto win, to just winning more and thats too damn bad. This expansion was absolutely necessary for the long term health and viability of the game on a competitive scale and it should make future tournaments a lot more fun and unpredictable to watch.
I've been trying to build an actually good Kindred deck since his release and have probably failed a dozen or so times.
But man I gotta say this deck is spicey, combining the strengths of veigar Senna, with undying vulnerable decks to create something will actually see Kindred getting to a 9/9 guaranteed.
So hard mull for like undying and veigard usually, pirate girl is nice on 2 a defensive counter swing play and ship Kind of works similarly on turn 4 but you drag with undying.
Really good, I think MOG would get a kick out of this one.
No I'm not saying I don't understand the line of play, and I've even seen it all of...once.
Its just terrible.
Like any deck that says I need to hard cast two 10 mana spells before I can win is bad.
Like feel the rush is the closest to a semi competitive "meme" card because it is literally just 12 mana I win most of the time.
You can run it as a cheeky 1 of in Sejuani midrange or as a 3 of in a hard ramp list.
--------------
But I have to say this whole conversation has made me realize how out of the realm of what people are actually playing, and how decks are actually built, and just like the universe maybe?
Wait are you guys just meme players, to be talking about playing 2 glorious evolutions into infinite everglades stalkers like that's a real competitive thing?
....................
Anyways based on my experimentation these are the 3 best Jayce decks in my experience.
1. Jayce Lux Specializes in tempo, removal and big swings.
2. Heimer tribal, specializes in infinite board control via cycling/board presence
3. Karma Jayce, mega control. Specializes in infinite spell value.
Meme decks
1. Frosty Jayce you can double winters breath...aaaaaand that's kinda it
2. Poppy Jayce runs the infinite cycling pkg I hate so much with Poppy....yuuuup
3. Shadow Jayce an Asian player did well with this essentially ledros control
4. Tf Jayce basically you use Harpoon for an easy fast speed level
Overall - Jayce I believe is Riots attempt at designing a Poppy like control champion...he's kind of good with everything but has enough synergy and build around cost to make him far less obnoxious and "easy mode"
So the biggest thing holding back Karma Ezreal was how combo dependent the deck was and reliant on lining up all the pieces to win.
But with Jayce he can win games on his own, and Ezreal can win games on his own, and together they super win games.
Pretty solid control package that also allows you to deny other jayce decks While removing their cycling pieces essentially for free with eye and ezreal.
The only change I'm making is Karma Jayce instead of Ezreal Jayce
Plays better into the bandlewood mirror where it's just like hey take all the time you need, my deck has infinite spell value to kill you, and you just have infinite board value which we don't really care about.
Just gonna repurpose this topic to discuss the meta stats for the new Jayce decks, and do a little sidebar for Swims entries.
Basically Jayce Heimer which I view to be an absolutely cracked op deck has an abysmal 50% winrate a lot of that probably has to do with the inclusion of the win more tech tribal card, when you could literally just run stress test and win more against open attacks.
Jayce Lux does better let's call it 53-55% it's basically the version Mogwai showed off...only changes I make personally to my list is I looooove progress day on Jayce Lux. Getting the burst beam plus the 3 mana discount and the draw and future discounts is big I find for mirrors, and every other matchup.
But the real interesting thing, is that swim will not run this decks at all and basically prefers solo Lux or solo Jayce with just a cycling package all the way down to shell girl on 6 and the obvious 4 mana champ inclusion I will not mention because we are all sick of her.
Finally the only Jayce list to put up real competitive numbers is this card pile here:
https://youtu.be/P0MaI51qDm4
I'm 90% certain that this deck wins in the same way go hard used to win.
Elise generates a bunch of pain in the butt bodies, and then you can just go for your slow win con, Jayce into double beam, and sure ledros too why not it basically stops heimer from ever winning.
New expansion has been out for 5 minuites and the optimal Jayce deck is already duplicate conchologist...want to know why because Champs don't matter, cards don't matter, turn order and plays don't matter...answers.dont matter...only cycling matters.
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I was practicly begging for a patch to tone down the cycling power in the game and we just got more of it...like how clueless can you get. Infinite card advantage with board presence in a card game is baaaaaaad
In a broader sense cycling had classically referred to any creature body that draws 1. But in Runeterra cycling is infinitely better because it's actually a cheap body and a tutor 1.
Also that body is not under-stated
Now you could say it's not a tutor because there's hearthstone r and g but unfortunately the card pool is too small to make that true.
Here's an example will you always hit equinox off a spacey sketches? No but you will hit it the second time you play most likely.
Now add this principle to bandlewood what are the chances they hit the 5 mana sled puffball or the 6 mana scout. Very high, and this is after you've had to deal with 3 poppies, and his buffed board. That's the power of tutors, and that's why just add Bandlewood is practically a meme at this point.
This is the meme take champ A add bandlewood tutors/cycling creatures, add poppy win games. Now you could argue it needs minimorph and stress test etc. But those are just tech choices, the infinite tutor pkg plus Poppy is so universal and so strong it can go with anything.
Like you can literally play the AI and you'll be like derp de derp whatever and then you hit infinite cycling and it's like wow that's literally the worst card choices and it's still better then everything else.
Gonna keep it real short, good news we get more Lux support, bad news they added more cycling at 2 mana.
We are basically in a situation where every single competitive archetype will need to have 2 and 3 mana cycling solutions or be soooo fast and agressive as to not care.
So it doesn't really matter if your 2/2 steals a card from your opponent, generated a 6 mana spell, creates more creatures, or invokes as long as you're trading on board and not loosing cards.
I kinda hate this from a long term growth perspective...like is Ionia gonna start getting 2/2's that generate cheap spells for Lee Sin oh wait they have Zoe and that still isn't good enough because they need like 10 more cards that do the same thing.
If I sound salty it's because I love this game, I love the Champs, I love the turn passing, I love the game flow...and infinite cycling destroys all of that.
It gets to the point where leveling Champs as part of a "quest" doesn't matter only wincons matter and infinite card advantage.
Yeah, so pretty much every game is a 20 minuite drag out value war.
Bandlewood is popular you can run it with Heimer or Swian or Poppy or anything else.
The only thing that matters is that you maintain infinite card advantage until you hit your finisher, or maybe you don't and it doesn't matter.
Targon does this pretty well also, and so does shadow. Not a lot else to say, like even overwhelm decks and aggro decks rely heavily on cycling now.
Using cards like lecturing yordle or the 7 mana shurima card, so how does everyone feel is this fun?
Like now that I understand what the game is I can patience my way through a handful of games a day by running rebel lists but thats about it.
It all feels exceptionally slow...and rather redundant, like what deck are you running? Who cares as long as it's 50 - 80% cycling...woo good times.
Then there's obviously the rally Zed decks which are the only lists fast enough to contend with what people are playing.
I really hope the next expansion includes less cycling and more cheap aoe or box style affected, or something like cyndervines from magic that punishes opponents from playing too greedy.
I just wanted to share the new #1 Europe deck, not because I'm gonna play it but it seems well positioned to punish all the curvestone decks out there right now aka all of them.
https://youtu.be/Vr7mfDYPAD4
Overwhelm could be the answer that stops people from blindly developing small threats and asking hey what is my opponent doing...because there isn't enough of that going on right now
Like even shadow isles a region that used to be defined by hold up vengeance to punish play, is now cycle into removal everytime all the time...we see that with a lot of decks where they are almost becoming "mobile friendly" autopilot nonsense.
No its just pretty much every deck doesn't actually really doooo anything.
Burn just plays a bunch of stuff and gets lethal.
Shadow cycles a bunch of removal into their hand.
Poppy Zed gives Zed elusive.
Like it really is just the least interesting most mind numbing type of strategic gaming availible.
Its no wow didn't see that coming...it's more wow I know your next 8 plays before the game starts...congrats you did thr thing you were obviously gonna do how droll.
And yes this does extend to Champs primarily being used as a finisher stick as opposed to anything interesting beyond that.
If you want to really narrow down what has stopped Legends from reaching the wide spread appeal of other CCG's its that there is no room for non linear plays within set deck lists.
Like dont get me wrong I have never played a net deck in my life, but if I have to watch you play them.over and over at least there can be room for some surprises.
This is the one area where mtg has the advantage, one instant spells being cheap, counter spells and removal cost like 1 or 2 mana, so your opponent gets punished for developing blindly as opposed to you getting punished for not developing blindly.
There's a pretty big difference there in that dynamic, where smart and surprising plays win and result in ranks, as opposed to optimal mind numbing.plays resulting in ranks. One is poker and the other is black jack.
Bluffing is fun, card counting isn't.
Lol that was fast, just a lot of turbo strategies, I can't even tell the last time I saw someone like actually try to play a game out, do synergies, or level Champs.
Oh well this ain't mtg that's for sure...thing like mana banking the excessive cost of removal, and rallies pretty much negate any strategy that doesn't win in 5 turns.
Really is mind numbing...
Its like 3/4 of your deck does not matter at all, you're just pushing soooo hard for the one straight line of linear play
Wake me up for the next balance patch, expansion, or when Swim starts giving a damn again...zzzzzzz