Hearthstone
Fleshshaper + Mutate is a problem
Long story short: played against a lot of Quest Shamans and could beat most of them with a variety of pretty average decks, except of course when they just happen to have Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate on turn 3-4 and just completely highroll you with no counter whatsoever.
I'M not saying Quest Shaman needs to be nerfed in any capacity at this point, but if there's one thing that would drastically axe its winrate it's probably that very combo.
It's just an autowin against any deck that relies on beating them on board and it doesn't help that you don't even have to overcommit to be punished by it. It's essentially MCT but instead of playing around it by having only 3 minions you need to play around it by having no minions whatsoever, because if there are 4 minions on the board by turn 3 you lose the game (unless you are blessed by Hir'eek himself)
This is basically just another symptom of the Conjurer's Calling epidemic because Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that high-cost cards that can reduce their cost to be play on early turns are just broken in combination with cards that take mana cost into account.
If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now.
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Long story short: played against a lot of Quest Shamans and could beat most of them with a variety of pretty average decks, except of course when they just happen to have Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate on turn 3-4 and just completely highroll you with no counter whatsoever.
I'M not saying Quest Shaman needs to be nerfed in any capacity at this point, but if there's one thing that would drastically axe its winrate it's probably that very combo.
It's just an autowin against any deck that relies on beating them on board and it doesn't help that you don't even have to overcommit to be punished by it. It's essentially MCT but instead of playing around it by having only 3 minions you need to play around it by having no minions whatsoever, because if there are 4 minions on the board by turn 3 you lose the game (unless you are blessed by Hir'eek himself)
This is basically just another symptom of the Conjurer's Calling epidemic because Blizzard refuses to acknowledge that high-cost cards that can reduce their cost to be play on early turns are just broken in combination with cards that take mana cost into account.
If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
Blizzard loves giving Shaman ridiculous evolve powers. Remember Dopplegangster and the tricks you could pull off with evolution?
I'm becoming more and more inclined to agree. A card like mutate is totally fine when you're evolving an understatted battlecry like giggling inventor or Former Champ, because at least there you played the full price for the minion before evolving it, but as soon as discounted minions enter the equation the amount of stats you can cheat out early becomes too oppressive. Conjurer's wouldn't have had to be nerfed without the Giant Brothers also existing in the same meta. Likewise, Mogu would be fair, a little underwhelming even, without the ability to morph it into an 8-drop well before turn 8.
Lost to a shaman who dropped Mogu on turn 3 and mutated into Gruul. I conceded turn 4. Felt SUPER bad for me, but this is not an incredibly common occurrence. I wouldn't mind a nerf to that guy, but I don't know if it's needed yet.
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
I just won a match because I was able to get a Grommash Hellscream on turn 4.
I don't think the combo is too oppressive because it is inconsistent, but when you pull it off it can be devastating. I do think they should change the way it works because losing to that combo just feels so bad, even if it doesn't happen often.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
Akali, the Rhino Al'Akir the Windlord Arcane Devourer Batterhead Captain Hooktusk Catrina Muerte Cauldron Elemental Da Undatakah Deranged Doctor Fel Lord Betrug Gilnean Royal Guard Grommash Hellscream Gruul Heroic Innkeeper Hex Lord Malacrass Hir'eek, the Bat Ironbark Protector Jepetto Joybuzz Lucentbark Mosh'Ogg Enforcer Octosari Pit Crocolisk Princess Talanji Splintergraft Splitting Festeroot Tess Greymane Tirion Fordring Walking Fountain Tortollan Pilgrim Tomb Warden Whirlwind Tempest
Damn the 8 mana Standard pool is waaay better than I thought. I remember one times losing to double Mogu into Walking Fountain.
I don't have a particular opinion to express, but I just wanted to highlight all the possible outcomes for people that want to comment :)
Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.
Mogu Fleshshaper into Hir'eek, the Bat totally OP, Blizzard please nerf.
Sorry guys, I had to.
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
I got ripped for saying this same thing in another thread. But yes, I 100% agree. I got killed by a turn 4 Tirion in two straight games. Feels bad. They also have that transform lackey that can do the same thing for 1 more mana, so its even easier to pull off.
Communism is just a red herring
Haha this is what would happen to me if I played that deck. Every time! I do agree that discounted cards interact poorly with cards that take their cost into effect once in play. This has been a problem in several cases and while the Shaman deck isn't tier 1 it is one of those situations where high rolling into a Gruul on turn 4 for example just feels bad to play against. In a game where fun is the goal unfun plays are a big problem often more important to fix than really powerful decks. For example see Big Priest in wild which is not a t1 deck but is just really unfun to play against while a lot of the other t1 wild decks are more fun to play against
Chaos, Panic, and Disorder, My work here is done.
Welcome to the thunder-dome bitch!
The eight mana slot has been the sweet spot for evolves and such for ages, but this is probably one of the strongest pools ever. I say probably only because The Lich King is no longer in standard. It's a fair point to raise that Mogu probably would be considerably weaker as a 6 mana 3/3 or 8 mana 4/4 even if it kept the discount mechanic simply because it'd roll into considerably worse minion pools.
On a side note I'm convinced Hir'eek costs 8 just to have an absolute dud on 8-mana rolls.
I find it best to do two things. Firstly, accept that the combo exists. Secondly, build your decks accordingly. You're statement about playing around it by having no minions on board is, in my experience the worst way to play around it. I have had much better time playing around it by flooding the board and holding buffs in hand. If you flood the board they will play the Fleshshaper, take a VT into one minion and then evolve. Leaving them with an 8/8 on average and you with a few minions ready to turn pump spells into kill spells. For example if he leaves me 4 attack on minions on board my Blessing of Kings is now sacrifice those minions, destroy his eight drop. There are other options in other classes, this is just the one that comes up most often for me as I've been playing lots of paladin.
TLDR; Fleshshaper + Mutate is powerful, but not overpowered. It can be played into and punished, as long as you're expecting it.
twitch.tv/BentoHS
The 8 mana minion pool is not bad right now but it's far from the strongest it's ever been. In the year of Old Gods (when evolve effects were first introduced), Karazhan and Gadgetzan, the worst minion was Anomalus, but the second worst was like, a 7/7. And then there were the good rolls like Ragnaros the Firelord, Ragnaros, Lightlord and Rhonin. That's insane compared to now with a pool that includes cards like Hir'eek, the Bat and quite a lot of 5/5's with no effect.
However, Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate is often still frustrating to deal with.
Blizzard should fix this as a mechanic, if you paid a certain mana cost for something it should keep the mana cost you paid for on board this would solve CC and any other future problem..
I usually get it on turn 4 and i woukd say 80% of the time its the 7/7 elemental
This happened to me today.
All I can say is that the horror is REAL! :)
\/\/olfgang
This seems fair to me, and I have heard it suggested before.
My question is, if the minion gets bounced back to your hand.
By your own OR by say, SAP. What cost does it go back to your hand at?
Or to the deck if it gets shuffled?
Concistancy would become a problem. The discounted card looses it's discount when used.
\/\/olfgang
It would definitely go back to hand at the original cost, with only additional cost reduction effects or cost manipulating effects on the card itself bringing the cost back down again.
The same is pretty true with cards that have been buffed or debuffed when they bounce, the stats all reset.
Quick! Someone give me something clever to write here.
Evolve Shaman with Thrall, Deathseer is the reason I have the golden Shaman hero! As soon as I opened that card I built the deck and played it at a 75% win rate for over 100 wins... Insane! The dominance of that deck dropped after a few months though after they nerfed Corridor Creeper followed by the sudden rise of Prince Keleseth tempo decks.
Quick! Someone give me something clever to write here.
I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree here. You see a problem and immediatly cry nerf, rather then looking at the bigger picture.
The simple reason of why mogu fleshshaper + mutate is powerfull is because people aren't running cards that awnser it. Or they have a removal option, but are playing a highlander deck and therefor can't consistently find their 1 awnser in time.
You won't hear the control warrior player complain as much about mogu fleshshaper evolve because he has the tools to deal with it. Same with the mecha'thun warlock player, he has plague of flames or voodoo doll + mortal coil to deal with an early big minion.
The fact is, cards like sap, shadow word death, subdue, hex, polymorph ... are seeing not enough play. There is a chance cards like ethereal lackey, vulpera scoundral, mana cyclone, can give you the removal you need but the chances usually aren't in your favor.
Sometimes you highroll your opponent, sometimes you get highrolled but you can't demand a nerf because you refuse to play the awnsers that are in the game or rely on inconsistent strategies to beat those highroller plays.
It would revent via the enchantment keep/unkeep rules there is a problem with prelete/undertakah with taurrisan/prismatic lens that would permanently reduce they cost (cause my suggestion is to make reduced cost an enchantment) but that's fine I guess it's much more complicated to do..
You are super late to the party, we have the exact same interaction for a looong time. Kobolds had corridor creeper which was literally the same but even easier to get on board early... That + unstable evolution did a lot of stuff... So next time you post circlejerk like this just don't, it's a very old strategy and definitely not that op
Reno Jackson
Kazakus
My faves!
You can beat me but I will still yeet your skeet
I don't think it's that big of a problem. It's a big power spike but most decks have big if not bigger power strikes right now. Priests are having 12/12+ on early turns, Edwin is still a card, druids are rushing two 5/5s for 5 (not even a combo), aggro warrior can do some nutty stuff with the merc. It's pretty far off from the value and power of conjurer's calling. Mogu + mutate isn't even super strong in several matchups and 8 drops has plenty of rolls that aren't too insane to deal with.
I think it's pretty important for the deck to get some raw tempo and it makes games interesting. Sometimes you get blown out but that just happens in hearthstone. you would have to change a lot of cards before it made sense to nerf that.
Just wanna add that Mutate has the 4th highest Mulligan winrate in Quest SHaman atm...only beat by Questing Explorer (ofc), Cable Rat and for some reason Shudderwock.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
we'Re talking about a 2-card combo that punishes decks that are just playing their gameplan and have no other option to beat you.
We're talking about a 7-mana Sea Giant that also deals 3 damage.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
no we did not, because a) Creeper needed things to die first, and b) we didn'T have 0-mana evolution (not to mention we didn't really have a Shaman deck that is strong outside of shenanigans like this at the time)
but yeah, let'S call it circlejerk because yo can't form a coherent argument
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
Cool. Now tell me what answers a turn 3 8-drop in Zoolock? Or in Aggro Warrior? Or in literally any deck that can't afford to run cheap removal (or just doesn't have it?)
the problem is not that Shaman has a highroll combo, it's that we're talking about a fairly common combo that neatly fits into an already powerful deck that punishes you for playing how you're supposed to.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
Well the combo is strong i give you that - but a cry for a Nerf is a little over the Top - at least in my oppinion! Sure the 8 Mana Slot is full of good minions but if Blizzard Nerfs every potential threat in the Game we could simply just stop playing because it would be boring - there will always be combos and cards that are better than others or strong but that is what the game needs - and there are classes like Warrior for Example who can deal with these kind of combos pretty easily!
Sure not every class but if every class would get an answer to everything the game would be boring or simply just stale ... and like someone stated above it is strong right now because most of the classes do not play tech cards for big minions - and also sure, not every class has but like i said above either play somekind of neutral tech or learn do live with the fact that not every class can counter everything.
And yes, most of the time the combo can high roll because of the many good 8 Mana Slot Minions but it can also happen that they mutate into Hir'eek, the Bat for example.
I personaly think that the combo is strong but does not need a nerf right now!
Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!
what is it with you people and the "it can fail occasionally therefore it's not that strong"? Hir'eek is literally the ONLY truly bad outcome, everything else is at least an upgrade.
Also yes, right now it probably won't get nerfed, but Quest Shaman will get stronger as it gets more cards and eventually someone's gonna win a tournament because of this nonsense and then everyone will act like it should have been nerfed from the start.
but I guess there are some people that like to get into win/lose situations by turn 3. Guesss we play the game for different reasons.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
We're not talking about nerfing every potential threat, we're talking specifically about Mogu Fleshshaper and more generally about discountable minions and cards that care about mana costs, like mutate, unstable evolution and conjurer's calling. These types of interactions are repeat offenders when it comes to not just high-rolling into massive stats, but doing so well before most decks can reasonably respond.
Cards/comboes that create big minions are not inherently a problem. King Phaoris, Astromancer, etc. are powerful, but fair. It's when you can hit that power spike on turn 3/4 that it becomes a big issue. And yes that goes for Cleef too, it's absurd he hasn't been HoF'ed or nerfed to four mana considering how many games, even at a high level, are decided by a turn two or three huge Cleef.
Getting back to discountable minions, if they retained their played cost while in play it'd be a hit, sure, but most of them would still be playable. Mountain Giant and Sea Giant are still criminally powerful even if you can't further exploit them with reroll shenanigans. Evolve effects are still powerful even if you can only use them "honestly" to reroll understatted battlecry minions like Dopplegangster and Giggling inventor or damaged minions after trading.
It is circlejerk tho ;) and yea we didn't have 0 mana evolution but mutate sucks as a card, it's usually not worth being played so stop being a burger and man up
Reno Jackson
Kazakus
My faves!
You can beat me but I will still yeet your skeet
First off - not realy true - sure Hir'eek is a bad outcome but there are still some otherrs that aren't that good - for example: Arcane Devourer - sure 5/5 in stats is better than a 3/4 but managable - or Heroic Innkeeper sucks pretty bad if you get him from the Mutate !! - Pit Crocolisk also not a good a good outcome ... Tomb Warden decent but also not that good ....
Sure there are others that are pretty Good like Tirion, Alakir etc - but it will not always be the perfect outcome!
And i guess you know the future because you said it will get stronger? we do not know that yet - sure there will be some cards you can use in Quest Shaman but i guess we will have to wait and see - about the tournament fact - not so sure because i haven't followed the recent Ones but so far Quest Shaman was not the OP deck (or at least the Mutate combo) was not that prevelent as you guys make it seem ...
And it is still a game so therefor you lose some and you win some - and simply saying this 2 cards destroy the fun or are simply too strong right now is - at least in my oppinion a litte over the top :)
And like i said in another topic about Conjurers Calling and the Nerf Situations - evolving into something with higher mana cost could simply be "fixed" if a reduced minion would keep the reduced cost for the evolve - like if the Fleshshaper is reduced to 3 for example it should evolve into a 4 cost minion and not it´s basic stats
Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!
That's literally what the OP is asking for: "If they fixed this interaction by having cards "remember" their played cost when they hit the field, we wouldn't have had to nerf CC and MAge wouldn't be dead right now."
alright, so you just don't even bother to argue, you're just pretending like saying "card sucks, git gud" is enough. I thought you people stayed back on Hearthpwn.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
Stop circlejerking about the subject all the time, and what makes people that are on Hearthpwn any worse than others?
Reno Jackson
Kazakus
My faves!
You can beat me but I will still yeet your skeet
at this point I'm inclined to forgive you because you seem to be unaware of what circlejerk actually means.
also you clearly haven't been to Hearthpwn lately.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
How's Hearthpwn doing?
Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.
Oh ok i guess i read the opening text wrong :)
Yes this could be a fix for those cards but still i do not see the mutate + fleshshaper as a big problem - at least right now :)
Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!
People talk about cleef and they say he is super good and he should be HoF or nerfed. But maybe I have seen like 10 edwins in my 2-3 years of playing hearthstone. I really don't see him much ever and he has never seemed like he has been good enough to need to get nerfed. Why do you think edwin should be HoFed? is he really that much of a problem?
Carrion, my wayward grub.
It's mostly casuals/people who have no idea how the game works.
People who think quest shaman is ridiculously strong because their homebrewed budget quest warrior can't beat it and stuff.
I'm starting to see a pattern on this thread. Some say it creates a huge tempo swing way too early, others say that the big minion can be countered with 2 cost cards. But that's the point - the combo is like a counter, and in this case, it's a counter to a fast, minion-swarming meta. It comes out earlier when fighting against aggro or tempo and most of the time it immediately takes control of the board. But if you're facing control, the combo happens later when it's easier for any deck to recover, let alone a control deck. Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate is going to be relevant as long as the meta stays minion centered. Does that mean it needs a nerf? Maybe, I can't say for sure. But I agree with others that keeping the cost permanent once it enters the battlefield (but letting it revert in case it's bounced or resurrected, like an enchantment) would overall be a good change to the game, not just because of this.
No i think he's not - sure i had a game a few years back were i was up against a 12/12 Edwin on 3 or 4 , but that does not happen that often. Most of the time he's a 6/6 or max an 8/8 - but even that does not happen that often - so i do not see him as a problem.
Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!
That's what i thougt the last time i looked through the Forums on PWN ... just a few days ago i thought let's see what is going on there and some of the Threats seem pretty abandoned - and the stuff they talk about etc is perfectly described the way sou said it - mostly people who have no idea about the game :) - with some exceptions but still most of them don't :)
Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!
Oh come on. Just because Rogue is off-meta right now doesn't mean that the most powerful rogue card ever is suddenly fine. Off the top of my head I can't recall a rogue list in the previous season of GM that didn't include him, and before that I'm pretty sure every viable competitive rogue list that didn't include The Caverns Below ran him as well.
And no, he doesn't always come down as a 12/12, and he doesn't have to to be a problem. A turn 2 6/6 or a turn 3 8/8 is so far ahead of the curve that most decks have to take two turns dealing with the problem unless they have exactly the right answer in hand, which means taking massive damage while the rogue can freely develop. It's like how the better class of Priest players doesn't just play Inner Fire + Divine Spirit for a 32/32 lethal, oftentimes making a 6/6 cleric on turn two is the correct play.
So yes, Cleef has been a problem since the dawn of hearthstone.
at the very least one could argue that Cleef is more balanced by being a legendary that also requires a lot of ressources and can easily be countered via silence (of which there is a neutral counter available to every deck)
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
thing is...it doesn't just counter minion heavy decks. It literally goes down to 3-mana by the time 4 minions are on the field...when the deck itself also tends to swarm as well. this means that even slower decks that play only a few select early game minions can easily get blown out by this thing on turn 3 despite not even playing into it. The only real counter would be to not play any minions at all...which doesn't really seem intended
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
nothing much by itself, but after the more engaged part of the community migrated here the amount of rage threads and overall lunacy has increased.
Basically you get a bunch of threads really aggressively ranting about a certain card without actually providing any arguments ("Zephrys is so OP because he gave my opponent lethal. No card should just give lethal"). Then a bunch of people who agree without adding anything ("you're right, fuck Zephrys"), a bunch of people who disagree and reference the Salt thread a lot ("OP is rank 50 confirmed, git gud") and then Hooghout chimes in and rambles for 3 paragraphs while using the word "mindless" at least once.
It would be funny if it wasn't so repetitive. Can't really get a discussion going if people keep spamming nonsense that adds nothing of value.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
exactly ! cleef is not a problem! There are many answers to him and like i said , it does not happen often that he will be bigger than a 6/6
Challenge me ... when you're ready to duel a god!
Certain combos are strong against certain decks, that is just how the game and matchups work. If your deck has a lineal path of going wide and having no single target removal than it is what it is. It isn't any more powerful than the same deck going wide against a deck that lacks aoe like rogue or hunter. Most of the best decks punish certain kinds of decks. Druid punishes slow decks, warrior punishes aggressive decks, priest punishes almost any deck that wants to do anything.
It's a powerful combo for sure but I just don't think the deck or combo is strong enough to need a nerf when the things i previously described are still out there.
Voidcaller was never nerfed and is almost the same type of scenario, though without the initial trade of the rush effect. Why does this need to be nerfed exactly?
Also, Sap, Poly and Hex are all available answers. The meta choosing not to use some of those cards doesn't mean a big minion in the early midgame is essentially broken.
I don't think Mogu Fleshshaper is a problem. He costs 7 mana and his stats are pretty poor. Yes the rush make him slightly better and the mutate can turn him into a good 8 drop but nothing worst than the previous Mountain Giant and Conjurer's Calling combo.
Firstly you only have to deal with one minion. As an aggro player most of the time you have a board to destroy that minions. As a control player you know the shaman plays the combo and you have plenty removal or tempo.
Secondly it costs 7, most of the time you won't see him appears before turn 3 or 4 and mulligan only this combo for the shaman at the beginning of the game is not that strong believe me.
Btw, the played mana cost being forgotten from hand to board is inconsistent with how stats are handled from hand to board: if the game was consistent with how Mutate or Conjurer's Calling are calculated, then handbuff should not exist as a mechanic (attack and hp would reset at board landing).
Stats are normaly resetted only if the direction is backwards, eg. graveyard to board, board to hand, hand to deck. They are kept otherwise.
Why doesn't this happen for mana as well?
HS has an history of getting big minions early on. Thankfully its only one,. Conjurers calling got nerfed cause u could get a full board of giants very early. We just need to deal with this adapt and never forget that its a 2 card combo. We lived past turn 3 shaman 7/7 and turn 3 giant with even warlock. We will make it
There are a ton of insanely strong 2-card combos. If your gameplan does not take the possibility of facing early big minions into account, you should probably change it because Combo Priest, Mech Hunter, and Mech Paladin all exist.
Gosh dang it, cards bad.
It's no more or less problematic than most swingy tempo turns in HS.
because Hearthstone is a clusterfuck developed by silly people who will apply consistency if the feel like it.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
we're talking big minions that rush in on turn 3 and are unaffected by silence. I do, in fact, tech against said decks, with the handy dandy Spellbreaker, which usually is enough...except of course when all that tempo i built up by going aggressive in the first two turns (against a quest deck whose main weakness is supposed to be a slow start) only to get blown out by a turn 3 Ironbark Protector that just murdered my Flame imp.
Better tech in that sick Voodoo Doll. I remember when we actually had tech for that. It was called Big Game Hunter and it was in every deck at 3-mana....WE GOT RID OF THAT BECAUSE WE ASSUMED THAT YOU WOULDN'T NEED TARGETTED HARD REMOVAL ON TURN 3
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
it is at turn 3
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
I do believe the reason is more charitable on them, but still quite bad on us: the devs believe that people don't just like powerspikes, but they do like entirely broken stuff sprinkled here and there. Otherwise said, they value the player playing Mogu Fleshshaper + Mutate more than the player on the receiving end of it.
And as long as average wr is ok, then everything is ok to them.
I think it is poor design (together with many other absolutely toxic comboes in the game), as frustration is harder to cleanse than some fancy pepper, but eh, maybe that's just not really true on the long run...
If you play it turn 3 that means that you already have 4 minions on board. If that's the case you should already be in a good spot. And stop acting like this is happening every time on turn 3. That's an insane high roll.
Gosh dang it, cards bad.
Incorrect, playing it turn 3 means that there are already 4 minions, total. When you develop a minion or two to answer an early aggressive board, then your opponent drops Mogu Fleshshaperto punish you for it. That's the situation that feels bad. I am not calling for a nerf (see my previous post on this thread), but I get why this card is triggering.
"Be excellent to each other." -Bill and Ted
It's made worse by the fact that Quest Shaman runs so many cheap minions. So even if you are not playing aggro, if you don't clean up all their lackeys by turn 3, then this is easily playable.
Communism is just a red herring
no, ffs, it means there ARE 4 minions on the board, of which at least 2 could quite easily be theirs. And ofc it'S an "insane" highroll. That's the point you dunce. It's a complete shutdown that can happen at any point if they just happened to open with it. it's literally the Healzoo opener on crack.
The point isn't about consistency, it's about how unfair of a combo it is and how it shouldn't even exist in the first place.
Quest Shaman itself is very capable of going wide in the early game and you're not gonna win against them by just trading off all your minions, because you should try to actually kill them before they steamroll you with the Quest.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
It was much tougher to get the creeper on board as you had to start with him in hand to start reducing the value. It was effective in paladin and aggro decks as they had tokens dying quickly. Evolve shaman was fun but never top tier.
Furthermore the creeper was hit hard by the nerfbat.
Literally any deck with the perfect curve is unfair. Your theoretical situation where your Quest Shaman opponent who can't play anything on turn 1 goes super wide on turn 2 (and for some reason you don't respond and just go face?) just isn't likely at all. If you're playing Zoo, your'e unfavored in that matchup. That's ok, decks can be bad against certain combos. Calm down, your'e not helping your case by calling people who disagree with you a dunce.
Gosh dang it, cards bad.
actually, this is a very good point, they literally have 2 mana to do things before turn 3.
you mentioned about a million times in this thread how broken it is to get this on 3, that almost never happens. lets say the shaman goes first, they play 0 minions, you have a one drop, there is now 1 minion. turn 2 your opponent can't play sludge slurper because of overload, so lets say they play the rat, then you play your 2 drop and maybe coin a one drop, there are now 4 minions in play and three of them are yours, only now does it cost 3. at this point the shaman has drawn 6 cards out of their deck, 2 of them were quest and slurper, so 2 of the other 4 would have to be fleshshaper and mutate.
the only time it happens on 3 is when both you and your opponent draw perfectly, and you had the opportunity to trade. It can come out on turn 4 much more consistently, because at that point there are probably enough minions that you don't have to worry about the cost and it all just comes down to drawing both fleshshaper and mutate.
I don't think the combo needs a nerf. I have played a bunch of games with and against this deck, and this combo rarely comes out, and when it does it is not game ending, unless you roll a tirion. the combo is strong, but far from needing a nerf.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
This combo doesn’t specifically need a nerf but there is no good reason why minions shouldn’t have the card cost used to play them. This would fix the mutate or transform combo with other mana discounted minions as well. There is absolutely no good argument against this other than developer laziness to code this.
Anyone trying to do mental gymnastics to argue against this is just being contrary or white knighting.
You really don't have to do mental gymnastics to understand why it works like this. The base cost is 7, so when the cost is increased by 1 it goes to 8. It is the same as if a minion with Power Word: Shield dies and then is resurrected but it does not keep the +2 health buff. The Resurrection mechanic does not care about anything that has changed the minion, it will bring back the same base minion
Cards like fleshshaper or any other giant could read "you can play this card for (1) less for each X" but it would just be a lot simpler to say "this costs (1) less for each X". The change in cost is not a permanent buff, it is an aura that goes away when it is played.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
This is exactly the kind of mental gymnastics Putontheglasses was talking about. Yes, we get how it works. We're saying it's wildly inconsistent with how the game interacts with other buffs/stat changes. If you, say, hand-buff a minion and then play it, the buff is remembered while the minion is in play. The game "forgets" about buffs, debuffs and other such alterations when the minion leaves play because it dies, gets bounced to hand, shuffled into the deck, w/e. However this bit is irrelevant to the argument, which revolves around discount minions while they're in play after being played for a reduced cost.
In a more consistent hearthstone, a giant would remember what manacost it was played for as long as it remains in play. Of course once it dies, you'd res it with its printed mana cost.
Fixing this silly and inconsistent handling of mana costs would instantly fix a bunch of oppressive interactions involving discountable minions and cards that care about mana cost. It'd make the conjuring nerf unnecessary. It'd make the game more intuitive and fair.
I don't think the mana changing back to its original after being played is inconsistent or silly. Cost changing from hand is its own mechanic, and it is supposed to work like this.
Handbuffing works differently because it is a different mechanic in the same way Lone Champion and Proud Defender are different mechanics.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
Saying that it's the way it is because that's the way it is is a nice tautology, but entirely unhelpful.
Again, we get it, it works like this at present. I'm presenting reasons why it ought not work that way, because it's inconsistent with other mechanics and it results in highly exploitable card interactions.
Let me give an example of an interaction that makes no sense intuitively under the present schema: You play a 1 mana Sea Giant in Magic Carpet zoo: It gets +1/+0 and Rush because you played it for 1, but by the time the buff is applied it's a 10-drop. Even if you're quite familiar with the rules you wouldn't know if this would work just reading the cards because the Carpet says "After", so the giant costs ten when the rush buff is applied.
Now am I saying this should be changed because of one fairly rare scenario in last season's Zoo deck? No, what I'm trying to illustrate is that the suggested change wouldn't just be a balancing tool for evolve-type effects on discounted minions, it would make the game more intuitive for a large number of interactions between cards that care about mana costs and cards that discount themselves. I see it as hitting two birds with one stone and I'm struggling to see any downside.
I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
We have both voiced our views on the matter, and at this point it is just my opinion against yours.
Carrion, my wayward grub.
No idea how can anyone defend this combo, on this specific deck, beats me
Now it's also a staple in Murloc Shaman, which is quickly picking up in play %. That one is not even punishment against aggro, because the deck floods the board enough to play a cheap Mogu Fleshshaper early with just its own minions
Communism is just a red herring
I just can't get that upset about these types of things anymore. Last format it was Giant+Conjuring. This format it's Mogu+Mutate. Before that, there was Keleseth+Shadow Step. Edwin has been around forever.
This is just part of the game. Sometimes, they're phased out naturally. Sometimes their nerfed.
The fact that most shaman decks are in the T2 range (and in part as a result of this combo) means that it bothers me even less.
I would say being able to put one single big minion on the board using a two card combo should not be a big deal, since chances of having it early are not that great, and by turn 4 you should be prepared for a big minion (mountain giant anyone?). So honestly I do not understand what's the fuzz about. I think it has to do with the general strength of the shaman quest deck.
stop complaining please...all the whiners and complainers make hearthstone look bad. it's a card game where there's a winner and a loser. you're obviously the loser congrats.
Buddy, this is a discussion forum. This would be an immensely dull place if people only ever agreed with each other on how awesome the game is.
And let's not pretend that the game is (or could be) flawless and perfect in every way. There's always room to improve and this is a place for people to point out where improvements could be made.
No one is forcing you to participate if you feel that having critical faculties and voicing your complaints somehow reflects poorly on the game.
What reflects poorly on the game is lazy and/or incompetent developers who can’t be bothered to make the game play consistent, fair, and balanced because their player base continues to gladly consume the slop they serve expansion after expansion. People accept subpar crap too often
I disagree completely. I can remember maybe a handful of time losing to quest shaman for a reason other than this combo. It makes the deck playable. Just look what's happened to Mage since Conjurer was nerfed. Top played to least played, just like that. This is not much different.
The problem is that even in the late game this combo is still good, so its that much crazier when it comes on turn 4-5. Compare that to a big Van Cleef which requires playing a whole bunch of cards (not just two) and is usually a waste of cards in the late game. Divine spirit > Inner fire has always been a problem and I will be shocked if one of those cards (probably divine spirit) is not sent to the HOF with next round of cards.
Communism is just a red herring
Did you just copy another person's comment? Also, I'd like to refer to my reply to the original comment on why this is not true.
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//Sinti: banned the bot and removed the external link from this quote.
Another solution would be to consider just friendly minions for its discount effect: it will still evolve into an 8 drop, but it will come much later and its cost won't be reduced below 2
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Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.
It's a bot, hence the link at the bottom of its post.
Just report it.
then you would have to reduce its cost by at least (2) or else it'd never hit the field. Not to mention that would remove it's original purpose of being a strong tempo tool in a token deck that works especially well against other token decks (or just board presence in general). If anything the total cost should go up so it's still a playable card even if you can't maintain a large board presence.
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
If Mogu fleshshaper is to be changed, I'd rather have it keep its functionality as a cheap rusher and nerf the evolve highroll aspect than vice versa. I think the cheesy highroll potential is what makes the card/combo problematic, whereas the discountable rusher aspect is the core thing the card does (by itself).
I'd rather not have the card be nothing more than an evolve target.
ROFL we are not complaining about HS but about some specific tiny detail of it which makes our gaming experience one big horror show of continuous losing to the same stupid combo!! And sure we can all start playing the same bullshit so it will be shamanstone until patch/nerf/new expansion but that would not be very interesting
Necroing this thread just to gloat and feel vindicated:
"I think with Shaman currently, there's some gameplay patterns that we aren't the most happy with, I think when you do have an eight-Mana minion that you evolved [from] a Mogu Fleshshaper on turn four, that's not a healthy gameplay pattern. I think that's going to be a card going into Descent of Dragons that we're definitely going to keep an eye on.
I think when it comes to some of these effects that cheat Mana and do things like that early on, that's something that we're looking at as a team and we're making sure that these effects aren't ruining your gameplay experience. So, we are definitely aware of it, and we're definitely going to be keeping our eye on a few cards going into the next expansion to see how their power level shakes out." - Alec Dawson
https://outof.cards/hearthstone/459-mogu-fleshshaper-may-be-too-powerful
Even if they end up not nerfing Mogu, it's just mighty ironic to hear game devs echo the kinds arguments that get you dismissed as a whiny loser by a certain section of the community.
I mean, that's the nature of an argument, some people will disagree until proven wrong. And since that happened now...I guess I win?
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.
Spice Lord and self-proclaimed Meme Master.
yeah, but honestly it doesn't really matter that much now because Hare + Evolve is even worse. Really this whole "blast from the past" was kind of stupid idea from the start. At least given the cards they ended up choosing.
I'm honestly less angry about losing to Shaman right now, because the highrolling BS is more consistent so it doesn't feel like I got cheesed by RNG everytime
I tried having fun once.
It was awful.